Episode 18: Policy Matters: Shaping the Future of Cancer Research

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M.K. Holohan, JD

M.K. Holohan is the Director of the Office of Government and Congressional Relations at the National Cancer Institute (NCI), which serves as the primary liaison to Congress for the National Cancer Institute, as well as managing Government Accountability Office (GAO) engagements and Freedom of Information Act requests for the Institute.  She has been director of the office since 2015, and served as the deputy director from 2009-2015.  Prior to joining NCI, she worked as an attorney in a litigation and government contract firm, and also has over 10 years of experience in oncology and infectious disease clinical research.  M.K. has a law degree from the University of Maryland School of Law.
 

Julie Nickson, JD

Julie Nickson is a Director of Federal Relations at the American Cancer Society, Cancer Action Network (ACS CAN) where she leads ACS CAN’s federal advocacy on cancer research and prevention with a focus on budget and appropriations. She also serves as the Chair of the One Voice Against Cancer Coalition (OVAC), a coalition founded by ACS CAN that includes over 50 national non-profit organizations representing millions of Americans unified in their message to Congress and the White House on the need for increased cancer-related appropriations.  

 Prior to joining ACS CAN in August 2022, served over two decades on Capitol Hill as a Chief of Staff for a senior member of the House Appropriations Committee and member of the House Leadership. Julie brings an extensive understanding of complex congressional politics and legislative strategy and process to her work. She also has deep expertise in federal budget and appropriations with an emphasis on health care and global health and development policy. Julie is also a cancer-survivor who brings her personal passion and commitment to the mission of ending cancer as we know it, for everyone.

Roy Herbst, MD, PhD

Dr. Herbst is nationally recognized for his leadership and expertise in lung cancer treatment and research. He is best known for his work in developmental therapeutics and the personalized therapy of non-small cell lung cancer, in particular the process of linking genetic abnormalities of cancer cells to novel therapies. 

After earning a B.S. and M.S. degree from Yale University, Dr. Herbst earned his M.D. at Cornell University Medical College and his Ph.D. in molecular cell biology at The Rockefeller University in New York City, New York. His postgraduate training included an internship and residency in medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts. His clinical fellowships in medicine and hematology were completed at the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and Brigham and Women’s Hospital, respectively. Subsequently, Dr. Herbst completed a M.S. degree in clinical translational research at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Prior to his appointment at Yale, Dr. Herbst was the Barnhart Distinguished Professor and Chief of the Section of Thoracic Medical Oncology in the Department of Thoracic/Head and Neck Medical Oncology, at The University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center (UT-MDACC) in Houston, Texas. He also served as Professor in the Department of Cancer Biology and Co-Director of the Phase I Clinical Trials Program.

Jon Retzlaff, MBA, MPA

As Chief Policy Officer, and Vice President, Science Policy and Government Affairs, Mr. Retzlaff directs and oversees the government affairs, science policy, and patient advocacy activities for the American Association for Cancer Research (AACR) in Washington, D.C. In this role, Mr. Retzlaff (and his team of ten) works closely with the AACR Science Policy and Government Affairs Committee to devise and implement strategies to influence important biomedical research-related public policy issues with the goal of accelerating the prevention and cure of all cancers. The staff also communicates with legislators, regulators, scientists, and the public.

Before joining the AACR in 2010, Mr. Retzlaff led the health and biomedical practice for a government relations firm in D.C. Prior to that, he served as legislative director for the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology from 2004-2007. 

Additionally, he previously worked (from 1993-2004) for the National Institutes of Health (NIH), first as a program analyst within the NIH Office of the Director's legislative office; then as a senior legislative advisor to the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke; and finally as the Executive Officer of the National Library of Medicine. During his time as an NIH employee, Mr. Retzlaff was “detailed” to the House (1998) and Senate (2000-2001) appropriations subcommittees on labor, health and human services, education and related agencies on health research funding issues, as well as within the Office of the Secretary for Legislation at the Department of Health and Human Services. He entered the Federal Government as a Presidential Management Intern in 1993 and completed a rotation in the Office of Senator Herb Kohl (D-Wis.) during his two-years of formal training.

Mr. Retzlaff earned a Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Minnesota (U of M) in 1989, a master's degree in public administration from Indiana University (IU) in 1993, and a master's degree in business administration from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in 2002.

Show Notes

M.K. Holohan, JD
Julie Nickson, JD
NCI's Office of Government and Congressional Relations
Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)
U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO)
Office of Inspector General (OIG)
NCI Tech Transfer Center
NCI Professional Judgement Budget
American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network (ACS CAN)
Black Volunteer Caucus (BVC)
Diversity in Clinical Trials Act
One Voice Against Cancer Coalition (OVAC)
American Women Quarters Program
U.S. House of Representatives Internships
U.S. Senate Internship Opportunities
ACS CAN Volunteer Opportunities
Episode 17: NCI Tech Transfer Center: Innovation through Collaboration
Exclusive Episode: Curiosity + Strategy = Progress with Dr. Karen Knudsen

Ad: Request for Information (RFI): Inviting Comments and Suggestions on the National Cancer Institute’s Support of Early Career, Mentored Cancer Researchers and Trainees

Roy Herbst, M.D., Ph.D.
Yale New Haven Health, Smilow Cancer Hospital
Jon Retzlaff, M.B.A., M.P.A.
American Association for Cancer Research (AACR)
AACR Office of Science Policy and Government Affairs
AACR Science Policy and Government Affairs Committee
FDA-AACR Oncology Educational Fellowship
Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act
Association of American Cancer Institutes (AACI)/AACR Hill Day
AACR Early-Career Hill Day
Rally for Medical Research
AACR Cancer Progress Report
AACR Cancer Disparities Progress Report
AACR Cancer Policy Monitor Newsletter
Robert A. Winn Diversity in Clinical Trials Award Program
National Cancer Plan

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Transcript

Oliver Bogler 

Hello and welcome to Inside Cancer Careers, a podcast from the National Cancer Institute. I'm your host, Oliver Bogler. I work at the NCI in the Center for Cancer Training. On Inside Cancer Careers, we explore all the different ways that people join the fight against disease and hear their stories. Today we are talking to four leaders who work in government relations, an important function in our complex democracy, and we'll learn about what they do and their career paths. Listen through to the end of the show to hear our guests make some interesting recommendations and where we invite you to take your turn.  

It's a pleasure to welcome our guests for the first segment. MK Holohan, the Director of NCI's Office of Government and Congressional Relations. Welcome!  

MK Holohan 

Thank you. 

Oliver Bogler 

And Julie Nickson, Director of Federal Relations at American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network, ACS CAN. Welcome! 

Julie Nickson 

Thank you. 

Oliver Bogler 

MK, I'd like to start with you. What does your team do for the NCI? 

MK Holohan 

Well, thank you, Oliver. We serve as the congressional liaison for NCI among other functions. Our team also has the responsibility to manage the FOIA program, which is the Freedom of Information Act statute. So we have a team dedicated to that. We manage GAO, which is the  Government Accountability Office, and OIG investigations and reviews.  

GAO is sometimes tasked by Congress to look into a variety of issues. It could be diversity in clinical trials. It could be animal models. It could be live animals used for research. There's sort of no, you know, any sort of topic they want to look into.  

We manage in collaboration with the NCI leadership and the NIH OD, we manage developing responses from NCI to congressional interests. We prepare NCI leadership for participating in congressional briefings, hearings, and we try to make sure that our leadership is apprised of developments within Congress that can affect cancer research and the way NCI and NIH operate. 

Oliver Bogler 

So NCI is part of the NIH, which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services, the executive branch. So what I'm hearing is that a lot of what you do is making sure that the other branches of government, predominantly the legislature, can get the information they need about what we're doing over here. 

MK Holohan 

Exactly, exactly. And we get a chance too to work with a lot of different grantee organizations, particularly cancer centers, and just really learning a lot about, you know, what their priorities are. Occasionally we'll have members of Congress visit cancer centers in their states and districts, and we will usually be part of those visits with NCI leadership. And those are just tremendous opportunities to really demonstrate the value and importance of cancer research and in training these researchers to continue this work. 

Oliver Bogler 

So you mentioned the Freedom of Information Act inquiries. I'm familiar with those in the context of, for example, journalists trying to understand what's going on. Where do most of the FOIAs at NCI come from? 

MK Holohan 

Well, there's a range. There's definitely media. There are individuals who are concerned about issues for them. Sometimes those are environmental exposures that are concerns. There's also a lot of interest in licensing, in tech transfer and licensing. And then there are grantees who are interested in what other grantees are doing in their research space. So we really have a wide range of FOIA requesters. And as you might imagine, there's also some frequent fliers who habitually file FOIAs, but there's a lot of interest in licensing technologies. And we have an expert team who do a really terrific job for NCI in being responsive to these as we always want to be. 

Oliver Bogler 

So we recently had colleagues from the Tech Transfer office on the podcast and then we learned a lot about how NCI works to commercialize its own inventions and discoveries. So what are the directions or the nature of these FOIA requests? Are they making sure that we are commercializing in the appropriate manner or…? 

MK Holohan 

Well, FOIA requests are always about documents. So typically, it would be looking for documents about an invention and if there's an NCI role and what the licensing details are. So I'll give you an example, actually, that is more congressional. And Congress doesn't have to file FOIA requests to get documents. That is more of an oversight responsibility and right that they have.  

We recently had some interest in…there was press reporting about an exclusive license that was being contemplated by NCI's tech transfer. And in point of fact, once we delved into this, it was, as is often the case, there was misunderstandings about the nature of the license and where the science was. So in no way was this a drug, a therapy that was going to be held very tightly for one company for their maximizing profits. This was a technology. Our tech transfer team provides the narrowest possible use because they want to have as - this is the NIH and NCI sort of frame - is we want the best use of any of all these inventions for the most exploration, for possibly the most benefit for patients. And so I was really impressed with working with this team learning a little bit more about the nuts and bolts of the patent process. 

You know, this was something that is years away from being a therapeutic, but really they approach this very narrowly. A company's not going to develop an agent unless they have a possibility of getting it on the market and making a profit. So they really are advancing the science in a way that is very mindful of the greater good and the fact that we want the best use of this technology for patients.  

So the expertise we have across the Divisions, Offices, and Centers is so helpful to us as we try to deal with congressional requests because we are always looking to provide the context about things that are often very complex and not intuitive. And so in FOIA, it's just documents. You don't get a briefing or an assessment. We don't prepare documents for a FOIA. It is supposed to be a fairly specific request. 

Oliver Bogler 

What exists. 

MK Holohan 

Yeah. And we work very hard to get the requesters what they're asking for and to help them winnow down requests to something that is going to be responsive and reasonable and they're going to be able to get it as quickly as they need it. 

Oliver Bogler 

So really, I mean, sort of the 30,000 foot view is government transparency. 

MK Holohan 

Yes, absolutely. Accountability, transparency, those are very important. And I think NCI across the board and there's other colleagues who work in these areas in the budget office, for example, we do a very good job of that. It's a big priority for us and it should be. 

Oliver Bogler 

Julie, you work for a private nonprofit organization, which is associated or attached to the American Cancer Society. We had your CEO, Dr. Karen Knudsen, on the show a few months ago. My understanding is that ACS CAN was created expressly to advocate on issues related to cancer. Is that correct? 

Julie Nickson 

Yeah, absolutely. I think that the board wisely understood … the ACS board wisely understood that, you know, to defeat cancer, it's a matter of public policy as much as the scientific kind of challenges that are there as well. And back in 2001, they created this separate organization. ACS CAN is nonpartisan by law. We don't have a PAC, we don't endorse candidates, but we are driven by the same evidence-based vision of ACS and we're the public policy arm. So we exist to advocate on behalf of ending cancer as we know it for everyone. And we do that at all levels of government from local to state to what my focus is on the federal government. 

Oliver Bogler 

You've described a little bit the landscape, but if you think about cancer as a societal challenge, what particular sort of elements of that are you focusing on? 

Julie Nickson 

So we have a big mission here, ending cancer, as we know it for everyone. Kind of my purview is I focus mostly on the cancer research and prevention funding portfolio. So my major campaign is working to get Congress to increase funding for NCI and for CDC prevention programs as well, NIH writ large. So the whole kind of biomedical atmosphere there. 

But, you know, ACS CAN is very much focused on patient quality of life. We work, of course, on tobacco control, which is critical. Access to healthcare writ large, including Medicaid expansion. And right now we're really working on the Medicaid unwinding piece, too, making sure people have access to basic care, including cancer care. And then, of course, advancing health equity and addressing health equity across the board and cancer disparities across the board is really central and at the core of all we do at ACS CAN. 

Oliver Bogler 

Maybe unravel that equity component a little bit more. I know you've done some things in that space. You have a Black Volunteer Caucus, I believe, that helps guide the work of ACS CAN. 

Julie Nickson 

The Black Volunteer Caucus is really critical to our work. Our overarching goal obviously is building, you know, a vibrant and diverse grassroots advocacy structure that can help lead our collective work to ensure that everyone has a fair and just opportunity to prevent, find, treat, and survive cancer. So a big focus of their work is on policy to help close the gap in cancer disparities in the Black community especially. 

And that includes advocacy efforts around one of our core pieces of legislation that we're promoting, which is the prostate specific antigen screening for high risk individuals. It's a big mouthful. We call it the PSA for HIM Act and also Diversity in Clinical Trials Act. 

Oliver Bogler 

So, clinical trials, that's interesting. So access to not only care, standard of care, but also access to the latest developments that are typically to be found in a clinical trial setting. 

Julie Nickson  

Absolutely. I mean, that's a core piece of making sure that we have equitable care and close disparities, especially in the Black community. 

Oliver Bogler 

And what's your sense of progress? We had Dr. Brian Rivers and Dr. Tiffany Wallace from NCI, Brian Rivers from Morehouse just on the show recently talking about health equities and the AACR report that comes out every two years. What's your sense of progress in this dimension? 

Julie Nickson 

I mean, I think that progress is being made, but we have a long way to go, especially when we look at specific disparities and prostate has been top of mind for us and for the African-American males in particular. So, I mean, while we're seeing important focus, and I think that that's absolutely critical, we have a long way to go to get where we need to be. 

Oliver Bogler 

Coming back to something you said just a moment ago, tobacco control. After the break, we'll talk to Dr. Roy Herbst and Dr. Jon Retzlaff from AACR. And I know that Dr. Herbst became interested in government relationships because of his work in lung cancer. He's a lung cancer oncologist. I mean, to me, that strikes me as a success story, tobacco control, in terms of advancing public health. 

Julie Nickson 

Tobacco control has had a phenomenal impact on the reduction of deaths, especially in cancer. But there's a long way to go there, too. We're waiting for the administration to finalize this menthol rule. And, you know, I work a lot on funding for cancer research and prevention. So CDC has a lot of critical programs there, too, and keeping the pressure on the federal government to fund these programs, because we know prevention works, especially when it comes to tobacco control. 

Oliver Bogler 

Right, and I guess I'm asking also, or wondering also, whether tobacco, the successes in tobacco control are a template for other areas, lessons learned that might be applied to other opportunities to change the landscape. 

Julie Nickson 

I mean, I think for two ways maybe. One is for lung cancer screening, right? I think lung cancer screening has become an issue that we're talking a lot about. And we've obviously ACS has just come out with some new lung cancer screening recommendations. And so that's a critical piece to the prevention puzzle. I think that is a template for other types of cancers. 

And I mean, from my perspective, too, and I might be a little one note on this, but, you know, it's funding, right? It's federal government emphasis and support on funding these well-known prevention efforts, whether it's breast cancer screening or whether it's, you know, lung cancer screening. But putting the resources behind proven prevention programs and the research that NCI does across the board, these things go hand in hand in order to address the burden of cancer. 

Oliver Bogler 

So you mentioned funding, obviously critical and something that ACS CAN can advocate for. Of course, we in the NCI, right, MK, we cannot advocate for that. We do put forward a budget plan every year that outlines our ideas or NCI's ideas on what it should look like. But we don't lobby Congress for money, right, MK? 

MK Holohan 

Correct. Our authorizing statute, the National Cancer Act requires us to submit a professional judgment budget. And that's a really wonderful opportunity for us to highlight ‘here's what it's going to take, and here are the great opportunities that lie ahead of us if we can meet them, if we can be resourced to meet them’. And it is somewhat aspirational because there are budget realities in terms of what allocations the committees get to divvy up among 12 spending bills, you know, that's reality. But we do have that opportunity.  

When the president's budget is released, however, that is the budget that we are representing when we go to an appropriations hearing, they usually call it ‘defending the president's budget’. That's typically more of the secretary's role. When it comes to an agency like NIH appropriators have specific questions and sometimes it is about success rates, sometimes it is about lung cancer or childhood cancer or environmental exposures, cancer survivorship. I mean there's a really well-educated, informed group of members of Congress who are on these appropriations and authorizing committees and you know it is our job to make sure we give them as complete and as thorough answers as we can while also trying to convey some of the big challenges in cancer research overall.  

One real challenge for us is the fact that almost half of our budget is invested in basic research. I heard a scientist last week call it discovery research, and I really like that term because that investment could yield a really important key piece of data that is applicable to many kinds of cancer and it is unknowable. And we have no choice but to keep funding that because that's really the engine of discovery. Even though science really doesn't happen organ site by organ site anymore in oncology, that's still how fundraising happens and that's still how advocacy happens from a disease perspective. So a lot of times we find ourselves in discussions about funding levels. And we want to be talking about following the best scientific opportunities.  

We do not lobby for legislation. We do not lobby for our professional judgment budget either. We release it, we try to provide briefings and answer questions, but that is something for exploration. And we do get a lot of support from the cancer community for our professional judgment budget, including ACS CAN, and they're a wonderful partner with us. But unless the administration puts out what's called a SAP, a Statement of Administration Policy supporting a bill, then we do not have an official position on it. We provide technical assistance to Congress through the department when they are drafting a bill about, for example, cancer survivorship, any sort of disease specific information. So we're trying to help them understand what would be helpful provisions and what might actually either be redundant to things we're already doing or not be helpful or potentially get in the way. And we're really grateful for those opportunities because it will always help for a better understanding and hopefully a better product in the end.

Oliver Bogler 

So, Julie, I wonder how these activities that MK just described in terms of the professional judgment budget and defending the presidential budget, how does that resonate with ACS CAN's efforts to promote funding? 

Julie Nickson 

So you could not have teed up a better question for me because I very much focus on that professional judgment budget that MK mentioned. And I will say having worked inside Congress too for a couple of decades, that is unique and it is a wonderful tool especially for advocates to dig through and to see all the things that could be possible when NCI is appropriately resourced.  

So, we take that professional judgment budget and we run with it as advocates. We run with it not only as ACS CAN, but I also have the privilege of being the executive director of the One Voice Against Cancer Coalition which ACS CAN put together also a couple of decades ago to bring the cancer community together around resources and advocating for appropriations for NCI, NIH, and CDC cancer prevention programs as well. So we take that number and we build out a campaign of support, both in coalition and through ACS CAN, where we're able to do exactly what MK can't, which is get out there and lobby. I'm a federal lobbyist, so I'm using those couple of decades of relationships up on the Hill, talking about the importance of this funding directly with lawmakers, their staff, really important committee staff, especially on the Appropriations Committee, both in the House and the Senate.  

And we have other tools in our tool chest, too, that we are always so happy to use as advocates, and the key one being our grassroots advocates. We have people across the board in every single congressional district that are advocating and talking directly to the members of Congress. We bring them here in September to meet directly with their lawmakers. And we just recently had an outstanding advocacy day in September where we had over 500 different meetings with members of Congress making the case for that professional judgment budget number for NCI. 

So we are able to be full-throated advocates with all the tools in our tool chest, and that includes media, it includes earned media and paid media, and a complete campaign around the support for this critical work. And at the core of this work is the voices and the stories of those that are impacted by cancer, right? And for me, it's particularly meaningful because I'm a cancer survivor as well. 

And as a matter of fact, it kind of was the piece that really propelled me to take on this second career in advocacy around this incredibly important mission. So I get the joy of being able to work with dedicated people day in and day out who are impacted by cancer and who are here for the mission. Like our CEO, you know, Karen Knudsen, these are some extraordinary leaders, our president, Lisa Lacasse. So I'm enjoying the second chapter of my career and being able to be a full-throated advocate on behalf of this incredibly important mission to end cancer as we know it for everyone. 

Oliver Bogler 

Thank you. And thanks for sharing that about your own path. I'd like to turn to your career paths, now. Maybe Julie we’ll start with you then. You already explained that your personal experience is what motivated you, but I'm kind of curious, what is it you think that prepared you for your current role? You started in psychology and law, if I'm correct. 

Julie Nickson 

Yes, that was a long, long time ago, it seems. But I was a lawyer before I moved to Capitol Hill. And I was driven to Capitol Hill because I didn't have any health insurance. And I thought, well, this is ridiculous. And I'd like to work on matters of health care. Within a few short years, I became a chief of staff for a member of Congress. She sits on the Appropriations Committee and the Labor Age Health Subcommittee. So I got to do appropriations work for a couple of decades. She became a member of the House leadership. So I got to do a lot of the House leadership work, which was incredibly rewarding. My couple of decades on the Hill, I did everything from domestic to foreign policy. I like to look at my bookends with legislation, which gives you kind of a sense of the range of what I worked on. When we first came to Capitol Hill, I worked on the PEPFAR legislation. So that's the president's plan for emergency AIDS relief. 

And we worked in great detail on that. My boss at the time was the author of that legislation. So we worked to get that passed. So that was my very first piece of big legislation and I worked to reauthorize that a couple of times. Now they're working to reauthorize it again. And it's moments like that where I really miss my old job because I want to get back in there and help. So that was the big piece of legislation that I worked on the beginning of my career. And then the last like kind of more fun thing that I did but also impactful was this Women's Quarter Act, which put a series of trailblazing women on circulating currency for the first time. So that started right before I left, we got that passed and it just released the first series of quarters with starting with Maya Angelou in 2022. So I worked on a ton of different things, but like I said, it was my personal experience with cancer that really drove me to think about that next chapter and where I could bring that hard fought set of skills and experience to bear on something that means so much. So that's a little bit about my path. 

Oliver Bogler 

Thank you very much for sharing it. MK, you also have some law in your background, but also clinical research, right? 

MK Holohan 

Yes. Yeah, my first sort of real job out of college was as a clinical research coordinator at the GW Cancer Center here in DC. And my father is also an oncologist. He's now a retired oncologist. So medicine has sort of always been around in my life. And I remember him taking me to rounds with him on the weekends. And he actually did his fellowship at NCI, which I'm very proud of and I know it was a really big highlight for him.  

I wanted to go to law school after college. At that time, a lot of folks who were newly graduated couldn't find jobs and that really scared me off. So you know, it was a lot of fun to be on the treatment team. I was too young and too inexperienced to have some of the responsibilities I did, but I took it very seriously and learned a lot. 

Then I ended up working in clinical trials sort of from the coordinator perspective, but for biotech companies. And then ultimately did go to law school quite a bit later. And I really enjoyed that. I did have health insurance though. Julie must've been doing some very meaningful public interest work.  

I went to a law firm and was doing litigation. And there were things I liked and things I really didn't like. But something I very much missed was sort of a personal investment in the outcome of the things I was working on day to day. And I was doing a lot of commercial litigation and big time construction cases. It was hard to get all that passionate about some of the outcomes. But I had done, in law school, I had done an internship, a legislative internship, and I worked with the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and this was right after 9-11. And so it was an incredibly intense time to be working on Capitol Hill, and I got to participate in some hearings about readiness and where we weren't ready, especially in D.C. And that really was exciting to me. 

And when I decided I wanted to leave the law firm, I started to, in private practice, I was looking at a lot of different attorney positions within government. And I'm really happy that I ended up at NIH. It was a gamble. I didn't know how I was gonna like it. And I didn't start off in an institute that had a tremendous congressional footprint. But when I joined NCI in 2009, it was, I was working with wonderful team. 

And, you know, NCI sort of had this kind of mythic presence in my mind because, you know, being an NCI grantee was a really big deal when I was a research coordinator. I worked on a lot of pharma trials, but it was just a whole different animal to work on an NCI trial. And I just developed incredible respect for oncology nurses and for social workers and the people who really take care of the patients. So… 

I don't have the scientific acumen to have become an oncologist myself, but I really believe in the mission and this is my contribution to do whatever I can to help propel cancer research and to explain it and to try to have as many legislators and policymakers understand what we're doing, understand how they can help. And I find it tremendously rewarding. I learn something new every day. 

And I just try to be up to the task as we develop things moving forward. And I actually remember working with Julie when she was a staffer. You know, it was not, she wasn't, we didn't regularly interact, but I was really delighted when she joined ACS CAN because they're such a wonderful organization to work with. And OVAC, this group that brings all of these cancer groups together to focus on appropriations for NIH and NCI is such a tremendous forum and group, they have a lot of impact. And it's such a wonderful thing for them to come together with. I think that we are really fortunate to have that kind of focus and for the role that ACS CAN plays in directing that in a very constructive way. 

Julie Nickson 

NCI could not have a better ambassador on the Hill than MK. Whether I was a staffer, and I'm really serious about this, whether I was a staffer, you know, interacting with her and now as an advocate, seeing her represent the incredible work and educate members of Congress, their staff and advocates on the important work that happens there. So it's just such a pleasure to work with MK and I think she's such a gem for NCI. 

Oliver Bogler 

Well, thank you for sharing that as well. I wonder then in closing what advice you might give to someone who's listening and who might be interested in getting involved in government relation work of the kind that you do. MK, what would you say to them? 

MK Holohan 

I think for people who are PhDs and genetic counselors and sort of on a science track, doing fellowships with professional associations is a terrific opportunity. If you are a student, whether it's undergrad or grad, try to get an internship. If you don't need to be paid, you have many more opportunities, but working with committees, go to your member of Congress and see if you can work with them. 

It is always valuable for whether a person is a biochemist or an engineer or someone who works in human resources and needs to deal with workforce issues, having congressional experience about getting some sense of how the government funding process happens, how laws are developed and how they are implemented. Those are really valuable skills that will add to any person's resume. I think... 

In government, it is super important to have a sense of the nuts and bolts of how that gets done, and also to sort of keep an eye on the big picture. You know, what are the pressures on the administration? What are the, what's playing out politically with Congress? I really think for any career, those things are super valuable, and you will have opportunities as a student at whatever phase you're in, in your education journey that are harder to come by when you are out of the training world. And so, particularly, I think, Oliver, for the cancer trainees of all different types, Congress is very interested in workforce development. And I think, you know, that those types of people at that point in their lives would have a very warm welcome. 

So I think take any sort of assignment you can get, but get the experience. And you can also work at an agency and do an internship or a fellowship and try to, you know, connect with offices like mine. And NIH OD has a big leg office, and so you could get a lot of different experience 

Oliver Bogler 

Thank you. Julie, what would your advice be? 

Julie Nickson 

Very similar, as a matter of fact. You know, MK hit the nail on the head. It's all about experience and especially in government. I mean, there is no substitute for being in a congressional office or in a congressional environment where you can really see the interplay of policy and politics and understand the process, because so much of this process is very unique. And it varies, you know, office by office, month by month, day by day, year by year. And so that experience is absolutely central. So I say the same thing, internships, fellowships, detailees. You know, I will say that the amount of detailees we had from the administration coming in working in our congressional office, that type of experience, even for mid-career professionals, is just absolutely essential. And then they're able to take that back to their agencies and to their next, you know, positions, and it makes a tremendous difference in building those nexus between inside and outside that helps government function better writ large. So yes, those types of approaches, especially for students, I will say MK, that we have a lot more paid internships on the Hill now, which is great, which is something we worked, I worked very hard on as a matter of fact, as a staffer, recognizing that those types of opportunities should be available for everyone.  

And I worked for a member of the California delegation, so that was particularly the case for kids who came from California. So you wanted to make sure that they had some type of payment so they can help offset the costs that come with some of those internships. So that's absolutely critical. And you know, I would also say that, you know, volunteering for organizations and advocacy organizations is something you could do at any point in your career, whether they're students or young people or as professionals. And that's a great way to have insight into how advocacy works, how government works, and how individuals can make a tremendous impact in the process through their telling their story, through contacting members of Congress. And so I'd say, you know, come and volunteer with ACS CAN. 

Oliver Bogler 

All right. Thank you. We'll put some links in the show notes so people can easily find you. Thank you both so much for coming on the show and sharing your interesting work and your own career paths. Thank you. 

MK Holohan 

Thank you. It's been a pleasure. 

Julie Nickson 

Thank you for having us. 

Oliver Bogler 

After the break, we'll be speaking with Dr. Roy Herbst of the Yale University Cancer Center and Jon Retzlaff of the American Association for Cancer Research. Listen to the end to hear interesting recommendations from our guests in our Your Turn segment.  

[Music] 

Oliver Bogler 

The NCI wants to hear from you about what we are doing to support early career cancer investigators. 

We have released a new Request for Information or RFI. 

It is entitled Inviting Comments and Suggestions on the National Cancer Institute’s Support of Early Career, Mentored Cancer Researchers and Trainees. 

NCI is committed to supporting the training and development of the next generation of the cancer research workforce. We are seeking input on our existing approaches and your ideas for innovations we might explore - all designed to improve how we support you. 

We invite suggestions and comments on all the career stages we support from middle school, high school, undergraduate and graduate studies through postdoc and fellowship to early research independence. 

NCI is interested in your opinion on how our grant awards are structured and positioned and whether they could be improved to meet the needs of a diverse cancer research workforce. 

Your feedback on this matter would be greatly appreciated. 

Responses are due by December 29, 2023. 

We’ll put a link in the show notes, but for questions, please contact nci_earlycareer_rfi@mail.nih.gov. 

We look forward to hearing from you. 

[Music]  

Oliver Bogler 

Welcome back. We're continuing our conversation on government relations work with two new guests. With us is Dr. Roy Herbst, Professor Deputy Director and Chief of Medical Oncology at the Yale Cancer Center and Smilow Cancer Hospital and Assistant Dean for Translational Research at the Yale School of Medicine. Welcome. 

Roy Herbst 

Well, thank you. 

Oliver Bogler 

Among many other roles, he serves as a member of the Board of Directors of the American Association for Cancer Research and chairs AACR's Scientific Policy and Government Affairs Committee. And also with us is Jon Retzlaff, the Chief Policy Officer and VP of Science Policy and Government Affairs at the American Association for Cancer Research. Welcome. 

Jon Retzlaff 

Thank you. Happy to be here. 

Oliver Bogler 

So before the break, we heard from NCI and ACS, and now we're turning to a third kind of organization engaged in conversations with government, a professional association, which represents over 56,000 cancer research professionals from early career to senior leaders. Dr. Herbst, I'd like to start with you. You work at Yale and serve as a volunteer member of the AACR board chairing this government relations committee, is that correct? 

Roy Herbst 

That's correct. I've been working with AACR now for over 25 years in many capacities and I've served on the board of directors and now this current role in government affairs is just really exciting. 

Oliver Bogler 

So tell us more about what the committee does, please. 

Roy Herbst 

Yeah, well, the committee really is involved in all areas revolving governmental policy. Of course, there's legislative actions that occur on the Hill that affect all of us in cancer research, all of our governmental funding agencies. And certainly that's something that we're always tuned into. We are representing patients. We have patients. Industry. All stakeholders involved in trying to find a cure for cancer. 

So we are available to follow what's going on in Congress, to make visits, to hold seminars, to really try to influence policy that will help provide more support and funding for cancer research. And we work very closely with an amazing staff at the AACR. The other thing that of course we're very involved with is policy issues that are of importance to the health of Americans, such as tobacco control. 

So we've had a subcommittee on tobacco control for now, over 12 years. I actually chaired that until recently, until I stepped up to this new role. And you know, as the Family Tobacco Act became law and the FDA tobacco agency went into play, we've been working to try to regulate cigarettes, nicotine, menthol, e-cigarettes, and that's been very important.  

Another amazing area that we focus on is regulatory affairs and the FDA. And Ken Anderson, for many years, has led that group. And we work very closely with the FDA. And we advise and help them with policy regarding clinical trial endpoints, accelerated approval, ways of reaching out and educating young investigators to understand regulatory affairs. We have a wonderful program we do with fellows. We go to the FDA and we lecture. So that's a big part of it. And then, of course, we're very involved in many policy issues regarding, you know, regulatory issues, you know, things like the Inflation Reduction Act, you know, biomarker work. And we have, Gil Omenn has been leading this for many years. So, and now we have Christine Lovly, by the way, who's leading the tobacco committee. So we have amazing expertise to try to bring information to bear.  

The other most important part of this committee is the patient advocacy track. And Carrie Treadwell, now with Anna Barker for many years, has been providing what we call a scientist survivor program where our patients can come to the AACR and they're guided through and we do programs with patients and advocates and others. So this is all very exciting. 

Oliver Bogler 

That's a broad front of engagement. Thanks for describing that. Jon, so you lead government relations at the AACR. Obviously, this committee is part of your portfolio. Tell us more about what your group does, please. 

Jon Retzlaff 

Yeah, well, we are really the ears and eyes in Washington, DC for really AACR's nearly 60,000 members advocating on important policies that are important to our membership, of course. And we're structured, so we have a Science Policy Government Affairs Committee that Dr. Herbst is the chair of. And then we've got these three subcommittees underneath that really drill down into the different areas, as Dr. Herbst pointed out, the Regulatory Science and Policy Subcommittee, the Tobacco Products and Cancer Subcommittee and the Health Policy subcommittee.  

So, you know, one of our main interests is definitely ensuring robust support for the NIH NCI funding because so many of our members are reliant on the grants that come from NCI and NIH. So, we are set up and designed to really be on Capitol Hill, whether it's an early career Hill Day to bring our young members to talk to legislators, whether it's partnering with the advocacy communities, such as the Association of American Cancer Institutes for a Hill Day, we started 11 years ago, the Rally for Medical Research Hill Day, and it started with the Rally for Medical Research outside of our annual meeting, where more than 10,000 people shut down the streets of Washington, D.C., because we had had 10 years of flat funding at NIH. In the past eight years now, we have seen robust increases to NIH and NCI. 

NIH has received two to three billion dollars for eight straight years. So we are in very good shape from the standpoint of fiscal over these past eight years. We're very concerned to date now with the debt ceiling agreement that is going to limit some of those discretionary dollars going forward. And there's some talk about how we need to even get maybe another rally in 2024, 2025, to try to change the picture that is presently out there at this point. 

Oliver Bogler 

You mentioned Hill Day. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about that. And I know Dr. Herbst, you also participate in Hill Day. But Jon, would you tell us, what is that exactly? 

Jon Retzlaff 

Yeah, so that's really bringing our members to Capitol Hill, setting up meetings with their respective members of Congress, whether that's in the Senate or the House. The early Career Hill Day is for our young associate members of the AACR.   

Oliver Bogler 

So these’d be like post-docs and students and fellows. 

Jon Retzlaff 

Post-docs, yep, and before they go to Capitol Hill, we have an extensive training program to inform them of, 

you know, kind of do a mock meeting of what it's like to sit in front of a member of Congress and what are the messages that those members of Congress need to hear about why it's so important that they should prioritize NIH and NCI. Dr. Herbst was the leader for one of our early career Hill Day when we brought in a senior person that kind of showed these young individuals really the ropes a little bit and how to go about things and he did a great job and we have these young members now who are very interested in policy, and they're very active and some even will move from the bench to actually applying for policy job and wanting to represent the AACR in Washington. 

Oliver Bogler 

Dr. Herbst, you also participate in the Hill Day. I wonder, what's your perspective? 

Roy Herbst 

Yeah, well, Hill Day serves so many important purposes. I actually have been doing it for nearly 20 years. And I remember the first time I went, how amazing it was to actually be in the halls of Congress and to meet with representatives. And you don't always meet the actual representative, but you meet the staff. But as I've moved up in the ranks, I have met with more and more, it educates. It's time to be on message. We have to prepare. We have to understand what are we asking for? What do we need to fund cancer research? How can we keep the NCI, the NIH budget strong? So that's one part of it.  

And the Hill Day we have most years in May, that's representative from different cancer centers, where by the way, the AACR has been very involved in bringing cancer center directors together. So usually that brings all the states together with their cancer centers. And in order to go visit an office, you have to have a representative from that district usually, but usually they'll take the state. So it allows us to get to all the offices, 

Everyone supports cancer research of course, but to different extents. But to get to some of the places that don't prioritize it as much and get our message across. That's one thing. The second is the early career investigator, which I have to tell you was the most fantastic day I had. I had a group of investigators, mostly young women from Texas. You know, and so we went to some of the red and the blue offices. And I'll tell you, it was very exciting to bring them forward because they were all either post-docs or young assistant professors, they were in that critical part of the career that you know so well where they're trying to get their first K award, they're trying to get their R grant or renew an R grant, and they told their stories. And that's what's compelling, telling representatives and their staff the stories of how more funding will help investigators to pursue their career. And you know, we lose people out of cancer research these days to other things because they can't be funded, they're worried about funding. So I thought that was amazing and in some offices we had a wonderful reception and some we didn't. And uh...spent a little bit of time over coffee explaining, you know, this is the way things work. So I think they all became more educated and better advocates.  

And then of course, the representatives need to know about patients and how they're affected and disparities. One thing that we've really focused on is cancer disparities and you know, what good is a new drug, you know, that targets a mutation in lung cancer, my area, if we can't get it to the patients that need it around the country. So that's an area that we've really focused on as well. So I think Hill Days are important. Advocacy is important. It's been hard to do it, you know through the COVID pandemic, getting back in person is really important. So we're gonna be doing more and more of that. And again, educated information, we have things that we leave in the offices that can then be used as legislation is pursued. 

Jon Retzlaff 

And maybe I'll just add to that real quick, you know, in terms of the Hill Days, early career Hill Day, the Hill Day that we work with the AACI. It's focused often on NCI's budget and cancer in many ways. The uniqueness of the Rally for Medical Research Hill Day that takes place every September for the past 11 years now, is it involves the entire NIH research community, American Heart Association, Alzheimer's Association, American Diabetes Association, and we have patients, we have researchers, we have clinicians, all coming together in one room, talking to the staff and the legislators from every single state, practically every single district. I mean, that's been a goal, to reach every single member of Congress during that Rally Hill Day. A very unique… and it's made quite a difference, I would say, over the past 11 years. 

Oliver Bogler 

I wanted to follow up with you, Jon, on a point that Dr. Herbst just raised, which was health disparities. So, in a recent episode, we talked to Dr. Brian Rivers from Morehouse School of Medicine, who has kind of seen that field grow. And of course, he gave credit to AACR for starting a conference on cancer health disparities many years ago that's been very successful. But I wonder how does that health disparities reflect in your portfolio, in the government relations portfolio? 

Jon Retzlaff 

Yeah, it is a priority of the AACR. It's a priority of the Science Policy Office. And I'll say, we started the conference, AACR started the conference many, many years ago. But four or five years ago, we started the AACR Cancer Disparities Progress Report. And I'm pleased to announce that on May 15th, the third edition of the AACR Cancer Disparities Progress Report will be released on Capitol Hill. Brian Rivers has had a huge role in the first two. He's going to have another role in this. And it is a… you know, we're going to work with the different congressional caucuses, the diversity caucuses on Capitol Hill. There's so much interest in this, trying to get more individuals participating in clinical trials from diverse backgrounds. It's a major effort and so there's some very exciting things coming forward as well as the things we've been working on. 

Oliver Bogler 

Please, Dr. Herbst. 

Roy Herbst 

Yeah, and one thing that's come out of this is there's a lot of interest now to train more diverse investigators so that they can go out into the communities to build trust, to understand. You can always say put more underrepresented patients on clinical trials. That's not enough. We have to change the entire system. So the way you change the system is by changing the people who are in the system and their values and how they design trials. So I'm actually doing this call today from our third now diversity in clinical trials workshop, we call it the Robert Winn program. And Robert's here with me along with Yu Shyr, Priscilla Pemu, we lead this, we're leading a course today where we're teaching clinical trial design and development and community outreach and engagement to a group of 62 scholars, most of them diverse in the NCI definition. And that's just, that's the ways to give back and to actually implement change which is so needed. 

Jon Retzlaff  

And you know, another way to maybe talk about implementing change is through this is what happened with the FDA back in early, it would have been early 2022 actually. They put forward guidance that would require companies to have a clinical trials diversity plan before they move forward with their trials to ensure that their clinical trials are diverse and everything. The AACR through our disparities conference, through the disparities report, has that has been a priority for many, many years up until the FDA did that, as well as other organizations pushing for that kind of result. Last December, President Biden signed into law. It's not just guidance from the FDA. It's actually law now that companies need to put forward a clinical trial diversity plan going forward. So it shows the connection, I guess, between the science and policy and advocacy and everything. 

Oliver Bogler 

Thank you very much. I mean, that's really important work and connects, obviously, to the National Cancer Plan that was recently refreshed and, obviously, also the strategic goals of the NCI. I wonder if I might ask you, Jon, how does the work of the AACR in this space differ, perhaps, from that of, say, the American Cancer Society?  

Jon Retzlaff 

Yeah, you know, we work very collaboratively with the American Cancer Society. I think there's some wonderful opportunities to… we're different in some ways. I mean, ACS is probably focused more on areas across the country. They have local chapters. Patients is probably the main emphasis. AACR where research community is our main emphasis. Of course, patients are extremely important. I mean, they're the most important aspect to all of what we are doing and things. So we work with the ACS on many things, whether it's a One Voice Against Cancer Coalition that we both are involved in, or whether they're part of the Rally for Medical Research Hill Day, and the initiatives that they put forward become things that we support. So we can you know, support their efforts as they support our efforts. 

Oliver Bogler 

So our show is about careers, careers in cancer. So I'd like to ask you both how you got involved in this work. Let's start with you, Jon. I believe you studied public and business administration, correct? 

Jon Retzlaff 

Right. I got a master's at Indiana University, and I was fortunate enough I applied for the Presidential Management Fellowship Program, a two-year program in Washington, D.C. and NIH hired me for two years. I rotated around NIH. I spent 11 years at NIH, but I think I had 13 different jobs while I was here because they sent me in detail to the House Appropriations Committee, the Senate Appropriations Committee. I worked for Donna Shalala and the Secretary of Health and Human Services Legislative Office, always paid by NIH, but on detail to these different areas representing NIH in many ways. So I owe everything to NIH. And then from those 11 years with NIH, I went to work for FASEB, which is 25 different scientific societies. I was the director of legislative affairs. I came back to NIH then and worked for the National Library of Medicine as their chief, their executive officer overseeing kind of administrative…and missed the policy a little bit. I'm at AACR today, I've been here now 14 years. So it's a wonderful opportunity to work with people like Dr. Herbst and the rest of the, the incredible minds in Cancer Research. 

Oliver Bogler 

So when you were a Presidential Management Fellow, I mean, those fellows do all kinds of different things, right? They get involved in all kinds of different activities across the government, across NIH, if they're at NIH. What specifically do you think drew you to the work with government? 

Jon Retzlaff 

Well, so the Presidential Management Fellowship, of course, was a program that allows people to go into government. So you're applying with all the federal agencies. I could have gone to the Office of Management Budget, OMB, HHS, and NIH, and they had different slots at NIH. And really, it was just the mission of NIH brought me here. Also, I mean, I had an interest in policy since that's what I kind of did at Indiana University. 

And one of my rotations was with, when Dr. Varmus was the director of NIH, I worked in the Office of Legislation on a rotation there. And then I went to Capitol Hill and worked for Senator Kohl from Wisconsin. That was my other, another rotation. I came back and I worked at NCI as an administrative officer. So outside of the policy array to see other areas and things. So that's the value of those internship programs. I'd say to anybody who's looking for a career, it's just immense. You never know what it's going to lead to. You can see different perspectives, different experiences, opportunities, and then you can kind of figure out what it is that really excites you and what direction you want to take. 

Oliver Bogler 

Dr. Herbst, your career has been in medical oncology, in academic medical oncology. What drew you to that field? How did you first get interested in science? 

Roy Herbst 

In science, wow. I go way back, but certainly I was always interested in medicine and in science and high school. I was actually very fortunate when I was training in high school in New Rochelle, New York. There was a science honors program at Columbia University and Columbia Medical School on Saturday mornings. It would be like, who wants to spend their Saturday morning there? But I actually applied and took a test to do it. And I became very interested in a few courses I took at Columbia Medical School back the, which led me to Yale College where I studied molecular biophysics and biochemistry and actually worked in a lab and realized I wanted to have a dual research and clinical career because I really enjoyed both. I worked in the hospital as a volunteer. So I was in a wonderful program at Cornell and Rockefeller Universities, an MD-PhD program where I was able to sort of work between the lab and the clinic and it just went on from there.  

I did my internship and residency in Boston at Brigham and Women's Hospital and then Dana Farber and then and then you know I made a very important decision. I took a chance. I got a call from MD Anderson. I didn't even know … I thought MD Anderson, I didn’t know what it meant. I hadn't really heard much about it and I went down and took a look and I met a man, Dr. Waun Ki Hong, and he really wanted me to come, and he knew how to recruit well and I said ‘what the heck, things look pretty good here, it’s a pretty good institution’. 

And that was really, really great because there I was very focused on the science of lung cancer at a time when mutations were being discovered, EGFR inhibitors, angiogenesis inhibitors. This was before immunotherapy, but we've worked in that area. So that really was how I got my start in clinical care research and lung cancer work. But that's how I got involved in policy because, you know, lung cancer, as much as we do with new targeted drugs and immunotherapy, if people don't stop smoking, if we don't, you know, avoid environmental hazards, you know we’re still going to have so much cancer. We can prevent so much more cancer with screening if our drugs don't get approved.  

So one night I was having dinner with my mentor, Waun Ki Hong, and Dr. Marge Foti was in town so we were talking and she met me. And you know he was, you know mentors advocate for the mentees, and so he was ‘you know Roy can do some work in…’ and I got involved in this government affairs work. 

And then around 2009 the opportunity came up to revise the AACR tobacco statement. There was a statement but it hadn't been revised for twenty five years and now the FDA was forming the Office for Tobacco Products so I remember sitting with Dr. Hong and Marge at the Hilton of the Americas in Houston, for the disparities… it was actually for the prevention meetings that AACR ran and we started the tobacco and cancer committee and the rest really just fell from that. It became such an important topic. I love devoting time to it. Numerous Hill briefings. We wrote documents on how do you treat patients for tobacco addiction when they have cancer. We did prevention papers. We got into the e-cigarette work early on.  

And it's been great working with the society and Jon Retzlaff and his amazing staff, but also just working and building a community of people, you know, across all disciplines, you know, policy, you know, you need physicians, you need psychologists, you need epidemiologists, you need patients, patients, it's all about the patient. You need lawyers, you need, you need everyone. And that's really how I got into this. And I love the policy work. I, you know, I love participating in the briefings. And now, of course, you know, we have the health policy, regulatory, tobacco, and we're always looking to branch out.  

But again, finding ways to bring better therapies to patients in real time. That's the goal, that's all of our goal. And I've been very fortunate to be mentored, and I'm still mentored. And I just spent a day in Jon’s office a few weeks ago with his staff and it was wonderful, talking to everyone about their projects. And actually they've hired someone who used to work at Yale from the Yale Government Affairs Office, a really great guy. So it's really wonderful to be part of this. 

Oliver Bogler 

And I should just mention Dr. Foti is the CEO of AACR. So maybe, Jon, quick question on that. She's obviously been a visionary leader of the organization and the world of cancer in general. So I assume she initiated some of these programs that you now lead, is that correct? 

Jon Retzlaff 

Oh my gosh, Dr. Foti is a visionary. She's the force behind so much of this. She, that's why I've been here for 14 years. I, there's … no year has been the same from the standpoint of we have to, she constantly wants to push the envelope from the standpoint of new things that need to be done to ensure that the patients are getting the treatments that are fast and effective and things. So everything from the Rally for Medical Research Hill Day that started when I first started. I mean, that was Dr. Foti saying we can go to the board and get them to approve this. The cancer progress reports that Dr. Foti insisted needed to be done every year as opposed to the committee saying, okay, we'll do this every five years. And Dr. Foti was like, what do you mean? We need to show accomplishments every single year. So she is the reason I continue to be at the AACR and she is, she has had a hand in every single of these initiatives that we've put forward. 

Oliver Bogler 

So, to close, I'd be curious what kind of advice you might have for someone who's listening and is interested in government relations work, either as a career like you, Jon, or as a part of their community service on an academic track like you, Dr. Herbst. What kind of advice would you give them? 

Jon Retzlaff 

You know, I would say from the standpoint of contacts and having meetings, you know, going and talking to as many people as you can in different areas of what they do. I mean, I had no idea what scientific societies did. You know, it was a black box in many ways when I was even at NIH and NCI. You hear about all these associations and things like that. And I think just getting out the door and sending an email and asking, hey, could I come and chat with you for a little bit? Or going to meetings where these organizations are saying what they do. That's so important. In DC, contacts are just so important because they could lead to other contacts and next thing you know opportunities and take advantage of fellowships and internships and things like that. 

Oliver Bogler 

Dr. Herbst, what advice would you give someone who's interested in getting engaged in government relations, perhaps while remaining on an academic cancer research track? 

Roy Herbst 

Well, you know, as a physician, researcher, I work in the clinic, in the lab, my goal is to get new therapies and help patients of all different groups and economic groups, socioeconomic, racial groups, and we have to do that through policy. So I would say that, you know, in working at a cancer center, community outreach and games are so important, and you do that through your legislative bodies and through my involvement in government affairs. I've gotten to know Rosa DeLauro, our congresswoman, and Senators Blumenthal and Murphy, and they help us because they need our data because they want to support our center, they want to support our state, they want to support our outreach. So for people to get involved, I would say just volunteer.  

I'll tell you, when I first started this, I'll be honest, I was a lung cancer physician. I developed some of the new drugs in the field and done the earliest trials. But I didn't know a lot about addiction and tobacco control and legislative affairs, but I learned. I learned from others. 

We are a community of researchers, scientists, patients, advocates, all fighting the same goal. So by going to the meetings, listening, reading, you know, I've learned so much from Jon Retzlaff, you know, and his team, you know, going to meetings and sitting and listening to legislators, then we can then propose and push the agenda forward. And you know, we are the community that needs these legislative changes. So I've enjoyed learning. I've enjoyed now leading the committee. 

But the key is bringing in new members, bringing in young members, bringing in expertise, putting things on paper, trying to push the agenda because again, it's about getting more patients the best possible care in the US and around the world. And I'm very excited to do this work and I think we're going to have a very important year right now. These are tougher times. They always say that, but I think right now, I think we are looking at a challenging year as far as funding, but we'll get through it and we'll keep people in the field. We don't want to lose our investigators. We want to keep people energized. We wanna build teams, but we'll do it because we're a team committed to striking down cancer. 

Oliver Bogler 

Last question for you, Jon. If someone is interested in Hill Day, particularly perhaps an associate member of AACR or someone in an early mentored phase of their career, how do they get involved? Can they just reach out to you? 

Jon Retzlaff 

Absolutely, you can reach out to me, you can reach out to our team. I know on our website, we have our Science Policy Government Affairs Committee website and things. So there's someone who's always monitoring that. So feel free to send an email that way. We have … they could sign up for the Cancer Policy Monitor, which is our monthly newsletter that goes out that really will tell people about the upcoming events and opportunities that they would have to volunteer and participate. 

Oliver Bogler 

Great, we'll put some links in the notes. Well, thank you both for sharing this important work with us and telling us about your own career paths. Thank you. 

Roy Herbst 

Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here with you. 

Jon Retzlaff 

Yeah, it's been wonderful. 

[YOUR TURN] 

Oliver Bogler 

Now it's time for a segment we call Your Turn because it's a chance for our listeners to send in a recommendation that they would like to share. If you're listening, then you're invited to take your turn. Send us a tip for a book, a video, a podcast or a talk that you found inspirational or amusing or interesting. You can send these to us at NCIICC@nih.gov. Record a voice memo and send it along. We may just play it in an upcoming episode. Now I'd like to invite our guests to take their turn. Let's start with you, MK. 

MK Holohan 

Sure. Well, I would recommend a book called On the House by John Boehner, former Speaker of the House. Besides being entertaining, I think it provides an interesting backdrop as to how some of the visions that we see in the House Republican caucus, how they came about. And you know, things are different and I think worse than when Mr. Boehner was the speaker. But I think it really actually sort of starts a really important history of the changes that we see sort of, unfortunately, adding to some real dysfunction at the moment. And it's a slightly more lighthearted take on things because of when it was published. But I think people will enjoy it. If you listen to the audio recording, Mr. Boehner reads it. You know, a little bit of warning. It's got a little language in it, which he was sort of famous for, but I found it very good, very, very interesting and funny. And I regularly give that book to people. So old school book. 

Oliver Bogler 

It sounds like a great intro to the mysteries of Congress. Julie. 

Julie Nickson 

Well, I'd have to second MK's recommendation there. That is a fantastic read, well worth your while. And having lived through those years, it's kind of like there's a little PTSD there when I was reading it. But it does give a lot of insight and I think set the stage for some of the things that we are grappling with now. So I wholly endorse MK's recommendation there.  

And mine is. Angel in Mink, the story of Mary Lasker written by Shirley Haley. And that was recently given to me in one of those books when someone gives it to you, you kind of put it in your tote bag or what have you. And then I found myself with a little bit of extra time recently sitting in a waiting room. And I picked it up and I read it from cover to cover. And I thought I knew something about the history here, but I had no idea about the woman. You know, who she was, what an incredible trailblazer she was, how much she accomplished for so many people and how her fearless approach to Congress and literally buttonholing people is something that inspires me every single day in the work that I do. 

And so I would strongly encourage people to take a look, to read it, and I was absolutely enthralled by her personal story, and I found it to be incredibly well-written and engaging, and I loved it. 

Oliver Bogler 

Thank you. That sounds like an interesting read for sure.  Dr. Herbst, what's your recommendation? 

Roy Herbst 

Well, you know, having been offered opportunities for leadership over the years, and of course leading this committee and others, I would recommend a book called The First 90 Days by Michael Watkins, Proven Strategies for Getting up to Speed Faster and Smarter. And the thing that struck me about this book is you have to listen. So even though I'm very proud to lead this committee, I really am just the coordinator. I listen. 

I bring in other people's voices and don't make change immediately, but as we define our agenda and then work with the team. So I think that book helps when they start a new project and you're asking how do young leaders begin, think, listen, learn, and then with your mentors start to implement change. But I've been very fortunate to have a number of opportunities in my career, both in Houston and now in New Haven at Yale. 

And, but really working with this society has just been a wonderful opportunity to listen, learn, and then have a bigger team to implement change. So that, that would be a recommendation for a good book for people to read. 

Oliver Bogler 

Thank you, that's great. Jon. 

Jon Retzlaff 

It was a somewhat difficult question because I've spent so much time every day having to read the New York Times and the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal and keep up on the policy side. So you don't have a lot of time for books and everything. But I had to recommend a book. I, you know, it's interesting. A friend of mine, K.J. Millhone, set the world record for canoeing the Mississippi River with his best friend. And his best friend died tragically of a heart attack. And he wrote a book, Your Father Was My Friend. And the book is really about stories and lessons to his best friend's two sons. And it is just a book about sharing and caring and connecting and it really had an effect on me and I think it had an effect on many others. 

Oliver Bogler 

Sounds like a very interesting read. Thank you for that. I'd like to make a recommendation as well. I'm gonna recommend a recent book by Dr. Peter Hotez entitled, The Deadly Rise of Anti-Science, A Scientist's Warning. Dr. Hotez is professor and dean of tropical medicine at Baylor College of Medicine and co-developed a low cost COVID vaccine which drew him into the national conversation around the pandemic. He tackles an important question in this book. How do scientists respond to misinformation? And beyond that, the changing cultural attitudes towards science and scientists. The book is brief and the best parts, in my opinion, are where Dr. Hotez proposes some constructive responses that I think are worth thinking about. So take a look. 

That’s all we have time for on today’s episode of Inside Cancer Careers! Thank you for joining us and thank you to our guests. 

We want to hear from you – your stories, your ideas and your feedback are always welcome. And you are invited to take your turn to make a recommendation we can share with our listeners. You can reach us at NCIICC@nih.gov. 

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