Season 2 - Episode 2: The Impactful Role of Mentors in Research Careers

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Tayyaba Hasan, Ph.D.

Dr. Hasan is a Professor of Dermatology at Harvard Medical School and a Professor of Health Sciences and Technology at Harvard-MIT. She is a leader in photochemical and photobiological approaches to treatment and diagnosis of cancer and infection using targeted strategies especially nanotechnology. She is an inventor of the photodynamic treatment of Age-Related Macular Degeneration in the eye, which has been used for millions of patients. She has ~300 publications and over 30 inventions. Dr. Hasan leads an NCI-funded multinational Program Project grant focused on image-guided treatment of pancreatic and skin cancers and an international consortium on developing low-cost technologies for image-guided photodynamic therapy of oral cancer in addition to several investigator-initiated programs. 

Dr. Hasan’s contributions to successful translational studies and other discoveries earned her the coveted US National Institutes of Health Pioneer Award in Biomedical Optics Award. She has received 5 Lifetime Achievement awards from leading scientific organizations, including the ICPP, the American Society for Photobiology, the International Photodynamic Association, and the Society of American Asian Scientists in Cancer Research. Recent awards include the Gold Medal Award for Excellence in Photobiological Research from the European Society for Photobiology, and the Gold Medal from the International Photodynamic Association, recognizing her significant career in photodynamic therapy.  She has also earned numerous awards for her commitment to mentoring, teaching, and equitable representation in science.

 

Girgis Obaid, Ph.D.

Dr. Girgis Obaid is an Assistant Professor of Bioengineering at the University of Texas at Dallas with over 10 years of experience in tumor targeted nanomedicines for optical imaging and therapy. Dr. Obaid received an NIH NCI K99/R00 award under the mentorship of Dr. Tayyaba Hasan at the Wellman Center for Photomedicine, Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital. His research, which is also currently supported by the NSF and other sources, focuses on the integration of nanotechnology with photodynamic therapy. Research thrusts in his group include modulating the tumor stroma to improve drug delivery, facilitate image guided surgery, and sensitize cancers of head and neck and pancreas to combination therapies (e.g. radiotherapy, and chemo-immunotherapy.)

 

Show Notes

• Tayyaba Hasan, Ph.D.
• Wellman Center for Photomedicine
• Harvard Medical School
• Massachusetts General Hospital
• Girgis Obaid, Ph.D.
• The University of Texas at Dallas
• Office for Research Careers
• Center for Faculty Development

Ad: NCI Rising Scholars: Cancer Research Seminar Series

• Visudyne
• Photodynamic Therapy
• NIH Pathway to Independence Award (K99/R00)
• NCI Predoctoral to Postdoctoral Fellow Transition Award (F99/K00)
• NCI Cancer Training Branch

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Transcript

Oliver Bogler 

Hello and welcome to Inside Cancer Careers, a podcast from the National Cancer Institute where we explore all the different ways people fight cancer and hear their stories. I'm your host, Oliver Bogler from NCI’s Center for Cancer Training. Today, we're talking to Dr. Tayyaba Hasan, Professor of Dermatology at the Wellman Center for Photomedicine at Harvard Medical School and Professor of Health Sciences and Technology at Harvard MIT. Welcome. 

Tayyaba Hasan 

Thank you. 

Oliver Bogler  

and Dr. Girgis Obaid, Assistant Professor of Bioengineering at the University of Texas at Dallas. 

Girgis Obaid 

Thank you. 

Oliver Bogler 

Listen through to the end of the show to hear our guests make some interesting recommendations and where we invite you to take your turn.  

Dr. Hasan, in addition to your science, which we will talk about in a moment, you've had a truly remarkable career long level of engagement in mentoring and supporting early career investigators. And that's where I'd like to start. You've won numerous awards in this space. I'll just mention a couple in 2012, the mentor award from the National Postdoc Association. In 2010, Science Club for Girls Catalyst Award honoree. In 2009, Harvard Medical School, William Silen in Lifetime Achievement in Mentoring. And you founded the Office of Research Career Development at Massachusetts General Hospital. Please tell us why you did that and what the office focused on. 

Tayyaba Hasan 

So the formation of that office was truly a learned experience. So it came from what I learned about my own career. And I was based in a hospital, although my academic life was at a university, and in the hospital you can easily be lost as a PhD, as a basic scientist, and be a second-class citizen in a way. But more importantly, I had no real mentorship. And I saw people going in different directions and thinking they were faculty when they, in fact, were not. And they always said that was their career trajectory. But 14 years had passed post-PhD, and they hadn't made a move in that direction. So we, actually, as a group, obviously, no one does these things alone. We formed a committee, which was called the PhD Steering Committee. And it was an informal committee, unrecognized. And we came up with two or three asks, and one of them was this. And it took about 10 years of talking to the leadership. And fortunately, the leadership was enlightened enough that they bought into it, and they invested in this office.  

And so the goal here really was mentorship and advice for career development of scientists. So we did not distinguish between PhDs or MDs, whoever identified themselves as a researcher within a hospital environment. And to the best of my knowledge, this was the first hospital-based research career development office that was dedicated to it. 

Oliver Bogler 

So you said it took 10 years to really go through the process of founding the office and getting buy in from the leadership. What was the response in the general community at Mass General? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

Well, I think the first response is very understandable. If you've ever been a minority in any situation, it's impossible for the majority to see that there are problems. So I think those had to be brought out. There were no pro…, you know, there are excellent programs for residents and medical training at these hospitals. I mean, it's a premier hospital, but there really wasn't anything for training of PhDs or basic scientists, people who wanted to make a career in science, whether they were MDs or PhDs. So that really was the enlightening process and then coming up with what we wanted to make it, lasting and be part of the landscape.  

So I will say now I've been away from it. So I think it was around 2005, 2007 that it was formed and this is now 16 years and it's part of the landscape of the hospital. So I'm very proud. I'm not there anymore but it keeps on growing which is very gratifying. 

Oliver Bogler 

Yeah, true legacy. Now it's part of the Office of Research Careers in the Center for Faculty Development, is that correct? 

Tayyaba Hasan   

Yes, and there's an Office for Women's Careers and an Office for Clinical Research Careers and everything is within that faculty development and also there is a Postdoc Office now and a Graduate Student Office so it's truly expanded. 

Oliver Bogler 

But if you think back to the days when you started this work, what were some of the first programs that you developed? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

 I had to go to the administrators or the leadership with a full curriculum actually. So we developed a curriculum of what were the trainings, you know, grant writing, how to run a lab. So as a PhD, you become a leader all of a sudden, the moment you become independent and you have no training of human resources, how to interact with postdocs, or students, and that can cause a lot of angst while you're worrying about tenure or whatever, getting a grant and getting your salary basically. 

And this is a soft money play institution. So there's some unique features, which means you have to bring in your own salary. You have to build infrastructure for everything. So some of those negotiation skills. And finally, I did interface with all the major offices, the human resources and the international office. Because today more and more of our scientists are immigrants and there were these visa pressures and they were afraid that if they didn't do what they were told they might lose their visa and so they needed some intercession from this office. 

Oliver Bogler 

Dr. Obaid, you did part of your training with Dr. Hasan. You were a postdoc, between 2013 and 2020, correct?  

Girgis Obaid 

That's correct, yes. 

Oliver Bogler 

So please tell us what was it like to work in that environment that Dr. Hasan was working to create? 

Girgis Obaid 

I think the one of the most obvious differences, I would say, with Dr. Hasan’s group is this very serious and dedicated focus on what's next, and how can you become prepared for what's next. 

And it was very different from other labs and other groups that I would hear of, which is basically just, you know, pushing out data, pushing up publications. And this was very, very different. And this kind of had a ripple down effect. And also the senior postdocs that we'd interacted with. So there were a couple of people that I was working with directly. And just seeing how they also focused on what's next, what does it look like to be trained properly as an academic or, or beyond. 

That was also something that I really noticed that was very valuable in her group was that there was no particular pressure to be a particular individual after your postdoc training. The future was in your hands and the opportunity was there created for you and the environment created for you to be whatever you wanted to be in the best capacity that you could. And that is really rather unique. And I've spoken to many, many postdocs over the years and that just simply isn't the case in a lot of other places. And, you know, without being somewhat hyperbolic about it, I really do think it has shaped everything about who I am as a PI, as an independent PI now, because I look back and everything from, you know, as Dr. Hasan was talking about, navigating social dynamics within the group, dealing with different personalities, dealing with hierarchy among students and various different nuances.  

We really did get a fantastic opportunity to be able to figure all of that out in that period of time. So there was obviously some uncertainty and nervousness starting my own group here, but I really felt like I got the best training possible really to be able to equip me to be a successful PI myself. 

Oliver Bogler 

So really the recognition that becoming a successful scientist, whether it be a research team leader as you are now, but also in any other kind of science careers, is more than just being good at science, right? It's also being good at other things, sometimes called soft skills, right? People skills and management skills. I actually think they're quite hard. Um, did I get that right? 

Girgis Obaid 

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Incredibly challenging, actually. And I could say almost half the job is trying to navigate your way around the soft skills, because you can be trained as a scientist with a technical expertise, you come from anywhere. When you're put in a position of leadership and trying to mentor your own students, that is not enough. It's as simple as that. You really must have these other skills, in addition to everything else, like the grant writing skills, the scientific writing publications etc etc. 

Oliver Bogler 

Right. So Dr. Hasan, when you think back to the, when you first had the idea for this office, and essentially the programs in it, which were not common at the time, you pointed to the fact that you yourself did not have any strong mentors in your early career. And is it just that you wanted to be something that you did not have for others? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

Well, I think I'm basically a social worker at heart. But in that time, I think the two things that I wanted was people to enjoy themselves at what they were doing and do their best. But there was no environment for that. And I had absolutely no guidance. So it just was that I felt very committed to it that I decided to make this crazy commitment of running a lab full time. And at that time, my lab was very large. It was 25 people. So, and doing the second job, yeah. But it's been the most gratifying experience because now I see people like Girgis and other folks who have gone and become professors elsewhere. 

And they're really, the one thing is that they're really good mentors. Whenever I see their, my scientific grandchildren, they always tell me how good mentors these guys are, which is about caring people, you know. It's very important. The legacy that you leave and the people you impact is the most important thing. 

Oliver Bogler  

So you just mentioned that caring about people is an important element in being a good mentor. I'd like to just go a little bit deeper. I've had mentors and some of them have been really great, others not so good, but it would be hard for me to really define in a few sentences what a good mentor is. What's your take on that, Dr. Hasan? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

Well, the first advice I give is that your supervisor is not necessarily your mentor. You know. And as you've probably heard, it's said that mentors can be tormentors if you treat your supervisor as your mentor only. So it could be that I'm a great supervisor for research and we… and highly impactful universities, are full of very good researchers. And so they can be very good supervisors in the sense of putting you on, you know, deadlines and deadlines and Nature papers and Science papers, right? 

Oliver Bogler 

Yeah, and guiding your science, I guess, right? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

Guiding your science really well, but guiding your future. And like I said, it worked out for me because I had no plans for the future, but I just wanted to do the best I could. But I think there are people who need a structure and spending time with them and figuring out what they want. And it could be quite different from what, for example, I didn't know initially when Girgis came that he would end up being in academia. And same thing with other people. I've said, you can go into industry and you'll have my full support, you know? And people have gone in and they're doing well in industry.  

Oliver Bogler  

Yeah. Dr. Obaid, so you've recently made the transition from, you know, being in that early phase of your career where you were probably primarily focused on your own research and now you are leading a team. I wonder having had that shift in perspective, what your assessment is of the field of biomedical research from a career point of view, lots of things are happening. What's your perspective? 

Girgis Obaid 

My perspective is that it is constantly changing, probably changing at a faster pace than it ever has been. And I would say to be adaptable is probably the most important thing that you can have in order to be successful. And that goes for everything, not just the science. I mean, science will evolve in of itself and you have to be adaptable to that also, but adaptable to the kind of people that will walk in through the door who want to do a PhD, who want to do undergraduate research. 

And that changes dramatically over time. I mean, this is something that Dr. Hasan and I have spoken about a lot of our PhD students when they come in. The basic understanding is that they want to work in industry and that's, you know, and that's perfectly fine, perfectly respectable. But I do recall from when I was a PhD student, that was not necessarily the case. And so that's been a huge drift in how people perceive academic careers, even up until the point of the PhD is that the end goal has changed a lot. And that also means that the mentoring has to adapt to that also. So how do the students then become as equipped as possible to be successful in the academic careers? And so things that I'm trying to instill, and again, I got this from the Office for Research Career Development, is to talk to these students about networking and what it means to build up an online profile and LinkedIn profiles and connecting with people and informational interviews. 

And all of that I myself learned during my postdoc as I was trying to navigate what I was gonna do. But that's really helped me then also tell my own students the ones that are pretty clear on industry and like, this is what you need to do. These are the people you need to speak to. Don't neglect things like manuscripts because that's absolutely critical for industry as well and finishing projects, being able to start and complete a project. So there's been a huge drift in terms of where people end up. And I think that has also made me think very carefully about what it means to mentor within my own abilities. And there comes a point where like, I don't really know what else to say to the student who wants to work in, let's say, patent law, but I know who they can speak to. And I think that's important, from my perspective, at least. 

Oliver Bogler 

Dr. Hasan, you've seen this, obviously you've been observing it and have been extremely active in this domain for many years now. I wonder what your perspective is on where we are in 2023? When you started off with your work that we just talked about, mentoring was not something people talked about, but now wherever you go, you see offerings, both for mentors and mentees to what is mentoring, getting trained and so on. Are we in a better place in 2023 than we were when you started out? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

I think we definitely are in a better place. Are we there yet? No, but I think we're definitely in a better place. And I'm not sure we'll ever be ‘there’ as in anything else in the ideal spot because the pressures are on both mentors or the supervisors and the mentees. And I think that the empathy that one can have with the mentees is to make them aware that this is not an ideal world and they have to negotiate around it, navigate around it. So for example, in my own group, all the postdocs who wish to, write a K99 and a R00 if they wish to go into academia. Now that, as you know, takes away a lot of time from the lab. 

I'm getting a lot of people coming to me and saying, what do I do because I'm not being allowed to write it? Because it is a commitment, right? So that's one. And for those who didn't want to write it, they felt guilty. And I said, absolutely not. You know, just, you have to write papers, unfortunately, or fortunately, because it shows that you can seal the deal. You know, you've worked on something and you can express it. But other than that, it's entirely up to you.  

But the important thing for the mentees, for the postdocs, or students to realize is that life is not built around them. So you have to be very balanced. Think of the pressures that the PI has, the supervisor has also. So it's a lot of give and take because you just cannot become a prima donna either as a supervisor or as a student. And that's a reality check that needs to be given gently and kindly, but needs to be given, yeah. 

Oliver Bogler 

I mean, when you open the scientific press these days, you are reading a lot of articles about dissatisfaction with the academic career in biomedicine. Obviously, we have heard through listening efforts at the NIH run by an Advisory Committee to the Director of the NIH that there are many challenges that people in their graduate student and postdoc years are facing. I wonder what your comment on that might be. Dr. Obaid, are you having trouble recruiting people to your team? 

Girgis Obaid 

It's a little different because our team has pretty much all either graduate students or undergraduate. Postdocs, they're not as prominent as they were in terms of the number of applicants like Mass General, for example. And so I feel like the recruitment of graduate students is very, very different. And because at that point, academia is not necessarily on their mind. It's more just about, okay, I want an advanced degree. So I think that's a little bit different when it comes to, I guess the, you can call it negative press around academic careers, which I heard in very loud volumes while I was a postdoc. 

Oliver Bogler 

Mm-hmm, but you chose to pursue the academic route. 

Girgis Obaid 

It's a combination of me pursuing it and it pursuing me. I think you can only go as far as the opportunities allow you to go. So it goes hand in hand what you want to do and the opportunities available. The ‘being dissuaded’, … you have to be very discerning about what voices you choose to listen to at any point in your life. People who have had traumatic experiences in industry or in patent law or anything will always speak the loudest. And I think when you're vulnerable, especially being a postdoc, especially being international like I was, and you hear all these noises, you have to be very careful in discerning why are people saying the things that they do and what's real for me versus what is not real for me. And I think that makes a big, big impact. If I keep reading and hearing things about poor mentorship and lack of interest of PIs  for postdocs and they're just left alone and I get terrified by that, that has no real bearing on my own career. And so I think there's also a lot of discernment in deciding what's applicable to me, what's not, what's real for me, and navigating that at a personal level.  

Oliver Bogler 

Yeah, that's a great insight. I mean, reading about generalities and statistics, it's like being a patient, your own path matters. And that's the same here. So that's a great segue. We'll take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll hear from our guests about their research and their career paths. 

[music starts[ 

Nas Zahir  

The NCI’s  Rising Scholars Seminar Series is a monthly seminar series we started about one year ago.  

We cover topics of all areas of cancer research, including data science and molecular mechanisms of tumor biology, as well as behavioral science. 

We invite the speakers to discuss their career path as well as talk about their research highlights. 

The goal of the NCI Rising Scholars Seminar Series is to highlight the research and the contributions that are being made by postdoctoral scholars who are funded by NCI through career development awards or fellowships, and also those who are conducting research at the NCI in the Center for Cancer Research, for example. 

Talks are the third Thursdays of every month from two to three p.m. Eastern Time.  

The presenters for the NCI Rising Scholars Seminar Series are selected by a variety of means. The first set of measures is looking to see whether there's a first author publication in the prior year. So for 2024, we examined for all of 2023. And then we ranked papers based on their number of citations as well as the field citation rate. And we also looked at balance of demographics of the speakers, geographical location, as well as gender, race, and ethnicity to the extent possible. 

We'll put a link in the show notes to the events page for the NCI Rising Scholars Seminar Series so you can register as well as look up recordings for past webinars. 

[music ends] 

Oliver Bogler 

All right, we're back. Let's turn to your science and career path, Dr. Hasan. Your original training was in chemistry, I believe, and what attracted you to that field? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

So chemistry was something that I was always attracted to, even as a child, you know, I'd buy these chemistry sets and just making soaps and things. And I was good at math. So I chose the physical chemistry kind of thing. My MPhil and PhD were looking at molecular vibrations between atoms and the energetics of how you went from reaction A to B.  Why would you want to know how a molecule goes from A to B? Because the details were how many angstroms it pulled before the bond breaks. So, you know, why do you want to know? And who's interested? And I said, probably just a few labs, but I had the best time of my life in doing that, figuring it out, and there was such a sense of victory. 

And then at the end of it, I decided I needed to do something more biological. And so by then I had not taken any biological courses. I had stuck to quantum mechanics, statistical mechanics. As only the young can do, I applied to a biochemistry lab and there were two prominent labs that actually accepted me. So those must have been advisors who were very adventurous because I truly had no experience with it. And where I went to the UPenn, I remember the first day he said, so you'll be quite at sea with the biological concepts. 

I said, yes, I'll be totally lost. But I did okay there. And then I wanted to do more, came to the MGH just for a year. I had an industry job somewhere in my back pocket. And I thought I asked them if I could take a year out, to be in Boston, really, that was the attraction. And then I really, I went to the grand rounds here and got hooked to how I could solve these problems. You know, of course, when you're young, you can solve every problem. 

Oliver Bogler 

I mean, it's that spirit that gets us scientific breakthroughs, right?  

Tayyaba Hasan 

Exactly. 

Oliver Bogler 

So how did that develop? Obviously, you had the molecular, you had the physics. How did that develop into your interest in optics and the interplay of light and chemicals? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

Well, the optics part was somewhat natural because in that you study, you know, in physics and physical chemistry, you study photochemistry and optics a little bit. But it was really the biology and disease that was a consequence, that is a consequence of my being based in a hospital because you live it and you see the problems and there seems to be in your mind, an obvious solution. And so then you get deep down into it and you start enjoying it. You know, we've had successes from our lab where it's become an FDA approved treatment and they've gone into clinics, there's several clinical trials from bench to bedside. But whether or not it happens, at this age I realized that it may not be recognized as that, but it does get noticed and somebody is going to use it. And you have to learn to be happy with that. You don't have to always get the kudos for it. 

Oliver Bogler 

You were referencing your work on is it pronounced Visudyne? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

Yeah, the Visudyne work was a big success. And it was, as happens in science, a side effect. I mean, I was looking at prostate cancer and, you know, out came a very competent postdoc who wanted to do eyes. And I said, I don't do eyes, but anyway, she plunked herself and we did it and that became approved and millions of treatments have happened now. 

Oliver Bogler 

That's quite an accomplishment. Dr. Obaid, you trained in biochem and chemistry at the University of East Anglia. How did you first get interested in science? 

Girgis Obaid 

Um, there was no time that I was not interested in science. Um, my earliest memories of that was part of the pyromaniac in me, I guess, that speaks about this, but, um, very young and whenever I'd be left home alone, my parents would go to grocery stores, I'd start burning pieces of metal or plastic in the kitchen just to see what color they'd burn.  

And so at some point my parents got so frustrated, they got me a chemistry set in elementary school, and they were like “This is older than your age, but better this than burning down the house”. And so I remember from the earliest stage, I always wanted to run a lab and it turned into a cancer lab, about sixth grade, um, from a personal experience. One of our family friends had passed from, uh, from breast cancer. And so I knew for the longest time that I wanted to run a lab.  

What that looked like changed many, many different times throughout my life. But I would say something that at least is closest to what I'm working on now and what I had worked on with Dr. Hasan is this poster that I saw in high school before going to university was a futuristic image of a nano robot delivering a drug to a cell. And they're like, this is the future of medicine. And so that kind of stood out. And then when it came to my undergraduate degree and trying to get some experience at the University of East Anglia, so I did biochemistry because it was a happy medium between both and I enjoyed both. So the final year we got to do a research project and I looked around and the only one in the entire university that actually interests me was this nano gold robot that delivers light-activated drugs to cancer cells. This was with Professor David Russell at the University of East Anglia. So I worked with him for the undergraduate project and then stayed on to do my PhD. And beyond that, things changed dramatically when I came to the US for sure. 

Oliver Bogler 

Is it just that there were so many opportunities in the US or were you particularly interested in Dr. Hasan's work? 

Girgis Obaid 

It was definitely Dr. Hasan’s work, without a doubt. I mean, at the time, so I had been speaking to Professor David Russell, he was also an incredible mentor. Like he genuinely cared about what my future would look like. And so we spoke in great lengths as to what it would look like if I was to do a postdoc with Dr. Hasan and in the US and at the Wellman Center. Because my PhD was on photodynamic therapy, and this was the best place to go in the world for photodynamic therapy was kind of a no brainer. And then only after coming did I realize just how incredible the experience will be for myself at the time and for my future also. 

Oliver Bogler 

So Dr. Hasan, Dr. Obaid just mentioned photodynamic therapy. Could you tell us what that is? Maybe not everybody's heard of it. 

Tayyaba Hasan 

Just to put it very simplistically and accessible to everyone: it is a photochemistry based modality. So but in terms of what happens in disease, for example, the eye or cancer, you essentially have … deliver a light activatable molecule to the area that you want to treat, and you can do that intravenously, topically, locally, etc. And then you shine light and only the areas where the light and enough concentration of that molecule it will have direct damage. And so that is the original definition of photodynamic therapy.  

Oliver Bogler 

It gives you a level of precision that you might not otherwise have. 

Tayyaba Hasan 

Very precise, and its particularly useful in, for example, my P01 has pancreatic cancer in it, one clinical focus. And there were patients who could not be operated on and the only hope for those patients is the Whipple surgery, but they couldn't be, because there was the tumor was sitting on the blood vessel and they couldn't take it out. So the precision of this helped this patient to have the tumor separate from the vessel, and then they could undergo full surgery.  

And so that's in essence, the original photodynamic therapy. And I keep on saying original, because in more recent years, what we've been discovering, and in fact, long before we have articulated that, other people had noticed that you do a treatment, a local treatment, but you start getting distant effects, you know, the so-called abscopal effects, but which to me is a mystery phrase because no one really knows why that's happening. But in photodynamic therapy, what we've really put that down to what we call photodynamic priming. So you get the local effect, the surgical precision, but then the light doesn't die. It's as a function of one over E. So exponentially it decreases. And when you, as you know, this is the bane of chemotherapy, when you inject any chemical in the body - these are non-toxic in contrast to chemotherapy. It goes, there's very little control of where it goes, even if you bind it to antibodies, right? So it's in a much larger area and the light as it decreases becomes innocuous in terms of doing any kind of surgical precision, but it does disturb that whole microenvironment. You want to disturb the microenvironment so that it becomes a rich soil for the next step for treatment of cancer. That's what we've been exploiting and other people have done a lot of immunology with it and that's our focus with pancreatic cancer now. 

Oliver Bogler 

Dr. Obaid. So we talked before the break, Dr. Hasan mentioned that she encouraged people in her lab to write K99/R00 awards. And I know that you were successful in getting one of those awards. And I should mention for our audience that is an award that's administered through the Cancer Training Branch, which is part of the Center for Cancer Training where I work. But I'm curious, what was that project on your K99 grant? Was it useful to you? 

Girgis Obaid 

I would say it was game changing, not just useful. This was kind of what I was referring to when I was talking about the career that chose me as opposed to the other way around. As an international postdoc at the time, the only opportunity that I had for a federal grant was the K99. And so that particular project was taking a lot of the concepts that I had worked on for my PhD and the early years with Dr. Hasan, which was functionalizing nanoparticles for receptor targeted delivery. And then taking that and pairing it up with another concept which Dr. Hasan had been involved in as well with Brian Pogue at Dartmouth at the time, and that was paired agent imaging and the idea that you can start to quantify the interaction of targeting molecules like antibodies or small targeting peptides. You can quantify the interaction with tumor tissue, but nobody had done it before with nanoparticles before. 

And at the time that became a really important controversial topic, I would say, is that how do targeted nanoparticles actually bind to tumor tissue if the accumulation is indifferent to whether it has a targeting agent or not. And so it was using this quantitative paired agent imaging technique to engineer truly molecular specific particles. Because if they're not really molecular specific, then you don't really get the benefits of targeting and then. 

And then combining that concept with a lot of the things that Dr. Hasan was talking about already, which is this priming and how that synergizes with chemotherapy and, and I had applied it to head and neck cancer at the time. His image guided surgery was emerging at the time as being really key for head and neck cancer, and so kind of became a natural pairing of these concepts altogether, but absolutely. I mean, it, it has shaped my career, I would say almost entirely.  

And I am in my program right now in bioengineering because of this idea that I was bringing together, imaging and nanotechnology for cancer therapy. And that really goes all down to the K99 and to the framework that Dr. Hasan had set up in the group, which is mentorship even amongst the group, even with folks who had received K99s before and all their expertise and how to think like a person who's going to be successful in a grant application. And these are very complicated things that you don't know off the back of your hand. You have to have experience. 

Oliver Bogler 

That's really interesting. Yes. I mean, we, we try very hard at NCI to help guide people on how to write successful applications, but there's a certain practice to it, if you will. And if you are, um, in an environment where that is valued and where you have access to people who've succeeded, I guess that's what you're saying. That makes it, that makes it easier. 

Girgis Obaid 

Absolutely. And especially for someone like myself, because I know that PhD students who studied in the US, who did their PhD in the US, and they really want academia. At that time, while they're doing their PhD, they kind of already know what they're going to apply for. They know they're going to do the F99/K00, I believe it is. And they know after that is the K99/R00. And coming in from the UK at the time, I had never heard of any of these things. And that's really where you need that experience and guidance in that sense, because you're not primed at that point. 

Oliver Bogler 

And tell us what is the R00 part? 

Girgis Obaid 

It's an independent phase. This is where you shape yourself as a truly independent academic. And what you propose in the grant has to be something that neither your mentors or your mentoring committee are either interested in or will be interested in the future. So this forces you to think, how am I going to be unique? And how am I gonna be truly independent as a PI? 

Oliver Bogler

And so why did you choose UT Dallas and what are you working on now? 

Girgis Obaid 

Good question. So UT Dallas is a relatively young school. The department is also relatively young. It's only been around for about 11 years. And so they welcome innovation tremendously. And there's no idea that, okay, you need to come in and you need to work on this kind of thing because that's really what we're interested in. They were incredibly open at the time. The infrastructure was fantastic from core facilities to collaborators to the hospital, UT Southwestern down the road. So that became a no-brainer for me. And the environment was incredibly healthy, very supportive, and it still is.  

And what I'm working on now is, so I just completed R00 this year, earlier in the summer. So the idea of using molecular imaging to modulate the tumor environment, to probe molecular interactions has now evolved into modulating the stroma and how that helps tumors respond to different treatments not just chemotherapy, how does it relate to, let's say radio resistance, how does it relate to immunoresistance, so it's turning into a little bit different but equally as interesting. 

Oliver Bogler 

Sounds fascinating. I wish you nothing but the best of success with that.  

Girgis Obaid 

Thank you. 

Oliver Bogler 

In closing then, Dr. Hasan, I wonder if you have any advice for people who are listening, given your perspective and your own experiences, what would you say to someone in the audience who is maybe thinking that they do want to stay in academics or they want to find a different role in science? 

Tayyaba Hasan 

So I think that's actually a great question for me because I've really never known what I want to do when I grow up and I still don't know. So I would suggest that whatever you do, do the best you can and be excellent. So your CV reads excellent, excellent. It doesn't matter whether you did molecular vibrations or age-related macular degeneration or cancer research.  

The other thing is be happy though. Also as a mentor, you need to make sure that people in your group are happy. If you're human, you'll see that a student or a postdoc is very stressed. So no matter how little communication you have with them, take a few minutes, take them for lunch if you can, but at least have a cup of coffee and say that you've noticed them. It's remarkable how much difference that makes. 

And pick a supervisor wisely. They have to be not necessarily your best friends. Pick a mentor in addition. And one thing I would say is don't be scared of writing grants because mostly people say, I don't want to go into academia because you have to write grants. So think of grants as a mystery story that you have to frame. And what could be better than being paid to solve that mystery because it is science fiction because it hasn't been done. So you're writing a science fiction mystery and you're getting trying to get money to solve that mystery and it can go like all good mystery writers you don't know how it's going to end so go with that yeah yeah. 

Oliver Bogler 

I love that. That's fantastic. I never thought of that before, but that is really... Thank you. That's very interesting. Dr. Obaid, the same question to you. What advice might you give to our listeners? 

Girgis Obaid 

So I would say two things, one of them is reiterating what Dr. Hasan mentioned, which is find a mentor. Be sure that they truly care about you. Once you are aware that they care about you, you better listen to what they say. And then in addition to that, don't listen to the noise that's not relevant to you, because my goodness, I know myself, Dr. Hasan knows, it drives you insane. It distracts you. It terrifies you. You cannot be productive and focused if you're listening to every fear that every person in the universe has to have about every topic that might be related to you. And so I think just that discipline of staying focused and staying true to what you want out of life, and just listening to your mentor and believing that they have no other ulterior motive, because you've picked them and you know that they care, and at that point to listen to them, I think it changes your life completely, 180 degrees.  

But not to listen to the noise is really important. I heard it during my PhD, in my postdoc years, it was everywhere. Social media was full of it. And I won't mention names, there were organizations established to terrify people about academic careers. And I just don't think it's wise to listen to everything that you see and internalize everything. 

Oliver Bogler  

I think that's fabulous advice, probably not just for your postdoc years, but maybe for your whole life. 

Thank you both for sharing your paths and your insights. Really, really appreciate it. 

Girgis Obaid 

Thank you. 

[music] 

Oliver Bogler 

Now it's time for a segment we call Your Turn, because it's a chance for our listeners to send in a recommendation that they would like to share. If you're listening, then you're invited to take your turn. Send us a tip for a book or a video or a podcast or a talk that you found inspirational or amusing or interesting. You can send those to us at NCICC@nih.gov. Record a voice memo and send it along, and we may just play it in an upcoming episode. Now I'd like to invite our guests to take their turn. Let's start with you, Dr. Hasan. 

Tayyaba Hasan 

I have two recommendations. One will sound like it has nothing to do with the career, but it has everything to do with the career, particularly in the United States. So it's a book called Without You, There Is No Us. And it is written by a Korean immigrant here, who came from North Korea. And the reason I think it really jibed with my emotions was it talked about immigrants and regret. So there's a sentence there that she says, regret becomes a way of life for immigrants. So, because you keep on thinking of what you've left behind. 

So in terms of careers, what I say to people is, you know, if you're an immigrant, the world is not fair. That's fine. Your language is not going to be as eloquent as the natives and you'll feel, you know, you look different. You're short, dark, speak funny, whatever the phrases. So you'll get discriminated against. But like Girgis was saying you have to shut out the noise, but do look forward. So the big thing for this immigrant would have been looking back, regretting, would be to see what you've gained and why you came and make the most of it because we have no control over the cards we're dealt with except what we do with them. So that's really what it is.  

The second thing I would recommend because I am a female scientist in what was in my time very much a male world. With somebody you've interviewed, Oliver, before, Dr. Nancy Hopkins, I think, the Picture A Scientist movie that she is sort of a hero for us, she's local, yeah. And it's tremendously informative. Don't regret what you've put up with. She put up with a lot but she's not regretting it. She's able to talk now and she's helped, I hope she's helped the next generation, I don't know well enough personally but I try to use that for where I suffered to make sure that no other woman suffers or no other young person or immigrant suffers. 

Oliver Bogler 

That's a great movie, that's a great recommendations. Thank you. Dr. Obaid. 

Girgis Obaid 

Yes, so I have one recommendation. This was based off my own personal experience the past, the last few years while I was a instructor with Dr. Hasan. And she probably remembers that I would keep asking her, I'm like, I need to go to the library, I need to focus on writing manuscript, I need to focus on writing this grant, I have to go do it in silence. And she'd say, okay, that's fine, but you need to learn the discipline of doing all these things together. Life is not gonna be this comfortable in future. And she was right. 

And I got to a point where even going to the library was not enough. And I came across this one book that was recommended to me. It's called The One Thing by Gary Keller and Jay Papasan. And it really teaches you how to deal with just one thing at one point in time. Like one thought, one task, one worry, one fear, one goal, just one thing, one particular point in time and nothing else. And that really was game-changing. And I think she will remember how the publications started coming out at that point in time from that book. So it's, yeah, I definitely recommend that. 

Oliver Bogler  

I'm going to check that out myself. I think, you know, we always are so excited about multitasking. And what you're saying is that's not really how we're built, right? Yeah. 

Girgis Obaid 

They say it doesn't work. The book says multitasking doesn't work. You just you go in and out of focus. That's really all it means 

Oliver Bogler 

Yeah, yeah, that's great, thank you. 

Tayyaba Hasan 

And even when we know it, it doesn't, we still get distracted. It's like those meditation exercises. If your mind has wandered off, acknowledge it and come back. So to this day, I wander off and then… [laughs] 

Oliver Bogler 

Great, I'd like to make a recommendation as well. I'm recommending a recent book by Michael Lewis called Going Infinite, The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon. It's the story of Sam Bankman-Fried, a cryptocurrency trader who rose to fame and quickly fell and is now serving a jail sentence. I won't give more details because the book has to be read to be believed. Like all of Mr. Lewis's work, the book is riveting. It's well written and well researched and provides lots of interesting information. 

I do think that Mr. Lewis gives the protagonist, SBF, a little bit too much credit. I won't say more, but it's a fascinating glimpse into a segment of our world that I would otherwise never have learned about. And while much of it is so very modern, crypto, high-frequency trading, and so on, most of it is a tragedy as old as humans. 

That’s all we have time for on today’s episode of Inside Cancer Careers! Thank you for joining and thank you to our guests. 

We want to hear from you – your stories, your ideas and your feedback are always welcome. And you are invited to take your turn and make a recommendation to share with our listeners. You can reach us at NCIICC@nih.gov. 

Inside Cancer Careers is a collaboration between NCI’s Office of Communications and Public Liaison and the Center for Cancer Training. 

It is produced by Angela Jones and Astrid Masfar. 

Join us every first and third Thursday of the month when new episodes can be found wherever you listen – subscribe so you won’t miss an episode. I'm your host Oliver Bogler from the National Cancer Institute and I look forward to sharing your stories here on Inside Cancer Careers. 

If you have questions about cancer or comments about this podcast, email us at NCIinfo@nih.gov or call us at 800-422-6237. And please be sure to mention Inside Cancer Careers in your query. 

We are a production of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Institutes of Health, National Cancer Institute. Thanks for listening.