Season 2 - Episode 18: Empowering the Next Generation of Women Scientists: The Sallie Rosen Kaplan Fellowship Program - Part 2

In the last episode of Inside Cancer Careers, "Empowering the Next Generation of Women Scientists: The Sallie Rosen Kaplan Fellowship Program - Part 1", we learned about the origins of the Sallie Rosen Kaplan (SRK) Fellowship Program from Dr. Jeff Rosen and Ms. Erika Ginsburg. In this episode, we feature a discussion with two alums of the SRK fellowship program, Dr. Tiffany Lyle and Dr. Kylynda Bauer. Dr. Lyle and Dr. Bauer share their experiences in the program and how it has impacted their careers. They discuss the importance of mentorship, networking, and embracing the unexpected in science, amongst other topics.

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Episode Guests

Kylynda Bauer, Ph.D.

Dr. Bauer received a Ph.D. in Microbiology and Immunology from the University of British Columbia in Dr. Brett Finlay’s lab. An NSERC-Vanier Canada Scholarship recipient, she was an exchange researcher at the Lee Kong Chian School of Medicine: NTU | Imperial London College and Lleida Universitat. Dr. Bauer joined Dr. Tim Greten’s Laboratory at the National Cancer Institute (NCI) through an NCI-iCURE postdoctoral fellowship. She was awarded a SITC-Genentech Postdoctoral Fellowship for Women in Cancer Immunotherapy and the NCI Sallie Rosen Kaplan Postdoctoral Fellowship for Women Scientists. Dr. Bauer’s research in the Greten lab examines neuroimmune interactions of cancer.

Tiffany Lyle, D.V.M., Ph.D.

Dr. Lyle is a Veterinary Pathologist at Cook Research Incorporated. She received her B.S. from the University of Georgia and her D.V.M. from the University of Georgia (2008), and following graduation initiated anatomic pathology residency at Purdue University’s Animal Disease Diagnostic Lab. Following one year of residency training, she enrolled in the Molecular Pathology GPP as an NCI Cancer Research Training Fellow. Dr. Lyle completed her diagnostic pathology training and didactic coursework in 2011 and continued her research training at NCI. Dr. Lyle’s research interests include breast cancer metastasis to the brain and brain microenvironment.

Show Notes

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Transcript

Oliver Bogler:

Hello and welcome to Inside Cancer Careers, a podcast from the National Cancer Institute, where we explore all the different ways people fight cancer and hear their stories. I'm your host, Oliver Bogler, from NCI's Center for Cancer Training.

Embarking on a career in cancer research requires a deep understanding of the science and acquiring the skills necessary to perform research, but there is a lot more that is needed. Like many institutions, the NCI provides career development opportunities to our fellows.

And today we're focusing on one such program, the Sallie Rosen Kaplan or SRK postdoctoral fellowship for women scientists. Last episode, we talked to Dr. Jeff Rosen and Erika Ginsburg who designed and led the program. Today we're talking to two alums of the SRK program to hear firsthand about their experiences and how it affected their trajectory.

Listen through to the end of the show to hear our guests make some interesting recommendations and where we invite you to take your turn. And of course, we're always glad to get your feedback on what you hear and suggestions of what you might like us to cover. The show's email is NCIICC@nih.gov.

So it's a pleasure to welcome Dr. Tiffany Lyle, a veterinary pathologist at Cook Research, Incorporated. Welcome.

Tiffany Lyle:

Thank you, happy to be here today.

Oliver Bogler:

Also with us is Dr. Kylynda Bauer, currently an iCURE postdoctoral fellow in the Thoracic and GI malignancies branch at the NCI. Welcome.

Kylynda Bauer:

Thank you for the invite, Oliver.

Oliver Bogler:

All right, let's start with you, Tiffany. What attracted you to the SRK program?

Tiffany Lyle:

Thank you. Attraction to the SRK program was really, really based on my network that I had built when I was at the National Cancer Institute… definitely a community of postdoctoral fellows and somebody told me about this amazing program that had really given them insight into not only their careers, but more importantly into themselves and as they chose their career paths.

So I learned about it just truly just at lunch in the National Cancer Institute in building 37, just at the lunch tables and just getting encouragement to apply not only from my colleagues, but then my mentor, Dr. Pat Steeg was definitely very supportive of my engagement in the program as well.

Oliver Bogler:

How about you, Kylynda?

Kylynda Bauer:

I was looking for ways to strategize and exit or a transition from being a postdoctoral fellow into an independent career. So when I saw the email about the Sallie Rosen Kaplan program, I thought this would be a good opportunity to gain skill sets in leadership and also to be part of a community of women who are interested in different scientific careers. So explore career opportunities explore ways to strategize how to reach the next level and also make some friendships and increase my networking.

Oliver Bogler:

So you mentioned that part of what attracted you to the program was that its a program for women scientists. Why is that important? Help me understand.

Kylynda Bauer:

Well, the laboratory that I'm in, when I joined, I was the only female postdoc. And so I think many female scientists in STEM can look around and say, wow, like this might be a male dominated group. So it was interesting to talk to women at various places in their personal lives and in their professional lives to see how they navigated challenges that may be specific to women.

Oliver Bogler:

Tiffany, was that an important aspect of the program for you as well?

Tiffany Lyle:

Oh, definitely. I mean, the camaraderie of having women colleagues not only who were in my peer group, but also ahead of me in their careers was invaluable, not only for lessons learned in the immediate timeframe, as Kylynda mentioned, but also just looking at that bigger picture of where my career was headed in my trajectory. And when I was in the program, I was pregnant with my oldest child who's now going to third grade now, and having, being able to just talk about, you know, real life with being a scientist and being able to stay engaged in my field as a new mom and what that would look like was just really being able to bounce ideas, not only again, off my peers, but also those who had, you know, navigated life as a mom and scientist was really wonderful.

Oliver Bogler:

So last episode we heard from Erika and Dr. Rosen about some of the elements in the program, but I'd love to hear your perspectives on what you found most helpful and most interesting.

Tiffany Lyle:

One thing that I found really helpful was we worked with a coach named Dr. Samantha Sutton and she helped us to really navigate and design our vision and one of her mantras was what makes your heart sing. And I hadn't really reflected on that. At that point, I had gone through undergrad and I'm a veterinarian. I'd been through vet school, done a residency, now in research working on my postdoc, and hadn't truly taken the time to say, what is actually making my heart sing in what I do? And really just getting the opportunity to write down and be honest with myself of what I wanted to do if I wanted to stay in research. If I wanted to… one of my dreams, I remember writing this down, was to pursue a career in science journalism.

We were encouraged to reach out to people in the different career paths of interest and do informational interviews, just very low stakes, 15 minute interviews. And I remember one of the people I actually reached out to was a journalist who was a veterinarian, also happened to be, I think she was a Miss Tennessee at one point as well. And just getting a chance to talk to people who again, I wasn't looking for a job, wasn't looking for any kind of externship or support, just really just learning about their career helped me to just get to know how people navigate those hard questions and find out what makes their heart sing as well, really was helpful for me.

Kylynda Bauer:

I would also say the caliber of the SRK program really helped navigate some of those informational interviews because I could email someone or write someone and discuss my link to the program and everyone was willing to talk. Another component of the SRK program was these bi-monthly workshops that dealt with leadership. So different aspects from confronting challenges in workplace communication, to understanding various styles of leadership and how this might need to change depending on a team that you're working with, as well as very useful aspects to forming a new lab such as grant history. Those were all very helpful.

Oliver Bogler:

So another element of the program, as I understand it, is an opportunity to learn a little bit about yourself, right? Sort of to do a self-assessment and you do a DiSC assessment, right? That's a methodology similar to the Myers-Briggs, but a little bit different. How useful were those elements?

Kylynda Bauer:

I think what surprised me about SRK was the focus on personal growth and how this was necessary to develop into being a leader. It was a very… to take somewhat of a step back. When I was applying for the program, I was very used to applying for grants that just focused on my research, but didn't really focus on me as a person. And so this program was very surprising with the focus on this element. So it took a bit of adjustment because I felt very comfortable speaking about my science or even ways to optimize a research project or how to write a paper. But the focus on how do I need to improve myself to be a better leader and a more efficient leader, that was a bit of an adjustment. So I would say that the DiSC assessment to let me know what are my strengths in communication, what are my strengths in interactions with people, and what are areas that I wouldn't call them weaknesses, but maybe differences that might appear was very useful and eye-opening.

Tiffany Lyle:

Yeah, I definitely agree with that fully. I remember sitting in the room, in Shady Grove going over that DiSC assessment. Understanding for my own and seeing where, my strengths are and what I bring to the table, but also sitting at the table with these other amazing women and seeing how the differences in our assessments and, and help, really helped me to also understand how I can work with, you know, so many different strengths and how they may manifest differently in others and to push projects and push science forward.

Oliver Bogler:

So we've already touched upon it a little bit, but you've mentioned the opportunities the program gives you to reach out to people, to also connect with mentors in the program and to connect with peers in the program. How important is that networking aspect?

Tiffany Lyle:

Oh my goodness. It was just truly an invaluable opportunity and experience. I mean, to really, first of all, just take a moment to, cause you know, it's one of those things where it's like, I'll, I'll try to reach out to them, but to really intentionally reach out to, you know, I think I remember 10 or 15 people, from, like I said, different, different careers, perhaps even different mindsets, different areas in their career, some near retirement, others early career. Really not only opened my eyes to potential as a veterinarian researcher, but also just in research in general and beyond the walls, beyond what I could even imagine. Like I felt like, you know, during my time at NCI and during my time in the program, so much information, but even my imagination was being pushed forward by those interactions and communications.

Kylynda Bauer:

I was able to form a network of mentors, which was very useful. So I had a mentor that was in the research scientists. I had a mentor who was in science policy. I had another mentor who works at the NCI, but is in an administrative role. So I was able to talk with each of these mentors about different aspects of their work, whether it was communicating to the general public or whether it was challenges in setting up a research project or ways you can jumpstart research ideas to different administrative roles that I hadn't been aware of or at least connected to prior to SRK.

Oliver Bogler:

So the cohort that you were part of, think, Kylynda, you just graduated from the program quite recently…

Kylynda Bauer:

That's correct.

Oliver Bogler:

Tiffany, for you, it's been a couple of years. Are you going to stay in touch with your group? Have you been, Tiffany?

Tiffany Lyle:

Oh yes, actually we just had a call, about once a year we'll try to all gather on Zoom and connect and keep up. But if it's not on Zoom, then definitely email is coming throughout the year as well. But we're all still in contact. Also, know, just sending Christmas cards, keeping everybody updated on how everybody's doing, how families are growing and beyond.

But yeah, it is definitely a not only career long, but lifelong support system and network that I'm grateful to be a part of.

Kylynda Bauer:

Yeah, we have a pretty active WhatsApp chat, so we still stay engaged with each other. It's been very useful for me in terms of career because I have several friends in my cohort who have gone on to an independent research role and they were able to share with me their application components or components of the grant, which was very useful. But we also just have a lot of fun with each other. We had a pajama Christmas party, so we gathered together for that. And then to celebrate finishing off with our SRK requirements, we took a mini boat cruise in Washington, DC. So just these opportunities to step outside of the lab and to celebrate each other has been a wonderful experience.

Oliver Bogler:

That sounds great. Really, really, it's important, right, to have a dimension beyond just the research. So if you think about, you know, your career projecting over the coming years, what do you think is the most important thing you'll take with you from the SRK experience on that career journey?

Kylynda Bauer:

For me, I think an important element was no matter what area of career you enter, when you step into the role of leadership, you're also stepping into a role where you need to inspire and bring joy to the community that you're engaged with. So learning how to embrace this part of research and not simply sitting or pipetting on the bench has been a wonderful part of my growth journey as a leader.

Tiffany Lyle:

And for me, the skill set I learned in SRK is a toolkit that I reflect on and use regularly. I mean, it is not only just, you know, my time at NCI, certainly being the experiments, learning how to become a good scientist, but part of becoming an excellent scientist is really understanding the toolkit from SRK of not only knowing oneself, but knowing how to lead a team and work with others and pull the strengths of others to push, push projects and experiences forward. I mean, it has been critical just in the start of my career. I left SRK in 2015, so almost nine years. So it's truly something that I've used and reflected on throughout my time.

Oliver Bogler:

Erika and her colleagues recently published a paper on sort of outcomes of the SRK program over its first decade or so. If you were to implement a program like this at your institution, what might you do differently? What would you keep the same?

Tiffany Lyle:

That's a great question. Definitely the same, think, having a small group of women scientists being critical, definitely focusing on one's internal strengths and opportunities for growth. When I came through, we had one mentor. Kylanda was speaking of three different mentors she had. I think that that's something that would be a great addition to have different mentors specific to different areas. The mentor I had was phenomenal, but certainly getting different input would be even better. And then I think in addition to that, perhaps if it could be even a little bit longer, you know, my program was about a year, but if it could be 18 months or even throughout the duration on some level of the postdoc, I think would be really powerful.

But, you know, it's...I mean, we're talking about how to make an amazing and excellent program even better. I mean, these are just little sprinkles on top. Erika and her team are phenomenal and will continue to produce an excellent result.

Kylynda Bauer:

I think that follow-up component is a great idea just to gather again with different mentors and leaders to see where are you at? Where do you want to go? But again, as Tiffany was mentioning, this is a wonderful program. It has so many different elements that touch upon different aspects that are needed for this transition to independence. So it's been great. If my cohort was listening, would know that my one complaint that I mentioned was I would like more food. So for some of these two or three hour seminars, it would be great maybe for some coffee or some snacks.

Oliver Bogler:

Yes, unfortunately you've put your finger on one of the limitations of being in the federal government.

Kylynda Bauer:

Yes.

Oliver Bogler:

Great. Well, fantastic. It's time for a break. When we come back, we will learn what got our guests into science and about their career paths.

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All right, we're back. Tiffany, let's start with you. Can you recall the moment when you decided to go into science and then veterinary medicine?

Tiffany Lyle:

Yes, actually, I was an undergrad at the University of Georgia in their honors program. And part of being in the honors program was that you had to work in a research lab for one academic year. And I had no idea what that involved. This was in the early 2000s, so I'm dating myself. Back then, you could go to college without having ever stepped foot in a lab. I know that there's plenty of high school students out there that are in labs, which is wonderful. But anyway, back then I had never stepped foot in a lab, never ever chosen a laboratory. And there was this wonderful biochemistry professor who was brand new on campus. And he picked me, the greenest of them all, to come work in his lab.

And his lab was actually on the biochemistry and genetics of yeast. And I mentioned from the start that I'm a veterinarian. So was working on yeast was about as uninteresting to me as I thought I could ever find myself. But he made this experience so much fun and taught me the ins and outs of using a Western blot, connected me, my first experience with networking before I even knew what it was, connected me with veterinarians. That was just my first experience with meeting veterinarians and also with physicians as well. That actually helped and opened my eyes to this concept of one medicine and one health and understanding how physicians and veterinarians can work together. And from there it was really truly just a just strong climb from from there.

I had opportunities to present that research that I did that summer in Thailand at an international conference and got other research opportunities from there. Went to vet school and met other amazing scientists that then led me to the National Cancer Institute. So it was really just a chance meeting and a really, really wonderful mentor of a early career professor who was just happy to teach and happy to get anybody excited about science. So grateful for him.

Oliver Bogler:

Great story. Kylynda, how about yourself? What made you want to do science?

Kylynda Bauer:

I initially thought I might be an artist or I might go into medicine. So I have an undergraduate degree in music as well as in biology. And during the summers, I had been looking for different opportunities where I could get jobs that were in healthcare related fields. My mom, she immigrated from Peru to the US on a STEM scholarship. So she had always been encouraging for me to look at different STEM opportunities.

And with her encouragement, I applied to a systems biology internship at Harvard University. And I got into the program and I started working in a lab that studied the microbiome. And I was just so surprised that you have trillions of bacteria that live in and on you and they contribute to your health through digestive, metabolic or immune processes. And I thought this is really such a great integration of healthcare, which was one of my interests. And also this artistry and creativity that I saw in my music degree.

So I applied to graduate schools. I went to the University of British Columbia and received a PhD in microbiology and immunology. My projects looked at how the early life microbiome impacts our brain and our development and how changes to these bacterial communities with diet impact our liver health. So I kind of these two tracks that I was working on.

So in 2019, I start looking for postdoctoral opportunities, mainly looking at microbiology labs. And in early 2020, I had different interviews lined up, I was planning to fly out to different laboratories. And of course, the COVID pandemic happened. And a lot of these interviews were either canceled, or they said we might need to postpone.

At the end of 2019, I had applied for an iCURE program through the National Cancer Institute. One of my friends said this would be such a great opportunity. You can go to the NCI. It's a wonderful facility with great core research. And I thought this would be a great opportunity to write an application. But I said, I don't have a cancer background. I'm not sure they would even interview me.

But I put together a proposal on cancer and the microbiome and send it off, hadn't heard anything back. And then in May of 2020, I received a call from the iCURE program saying that they wanted to set me up with interactions with different NCI leaders who are also studying cancer and the microbiome. So the more I talked to researchers at the NCI, the more inspired I was about their research and their potential for clinical aspects. So I joined Tim Greten's lab in the thoracic and gastrointestinal malignancies branch. And my work continues looking at how gut bacteria influence liver cancer. It's been a great experience.

Oliver Bogler:

Very interesting. So Tiffany, you specialize in pathology. I can see next to you on your desk a microscope. Our listeners cannot, but that's a telltale sign that someone is a pathologist. Why pathology?

Tiffany Lyle:

So pathology has been a just true beacon of light in my career and in my decision making. When I began vet school, was what's typical as for most in veterinary medicine and in human medicine. The first year I couldn't decide if I was gonna do small animal medicine, if I was going to do radiology if I was going to do surgery or what my specialty was going to be. But then I sat in a pathology course in my second year of that school. And it truly was one of those experiences where my eyes were truly open. I hadn't sat for hours at a microscope before. I really didn't know what that would involve or look like and how many discoveries came from that.

But again, having you know, just really wonderful mentors who were pathologists taking opportunities to go to pathology meetings as well, meeting other young pathologists, striving pathologists really was instrumental for me. And then not only that, when I was deciding if I wanted to do a residency, I found out about this amazing program through Purdue University where I did my residency and the National Cancer Institute, which is the Comparative Biomedical Scientist Training Program led by Dr. Mark Simpson and co-led by Dr. Heather Shive. And this program really helps veterinarians and supports veterinarians to become comparative scientists using pathology. And again, just really fortunate to find these programs that allow me to grow and thrive as a pathologist.

So I was able to use my pathology skill set in my research studying brain metastasis of breast cancer, but also learning the critical bench skill sets as well to support the pathology. And then beyond that, I was in academia as well where I was a pathology professor. And then now today as a medical device pathologist use this skill set every single day.

Oliver Bogler:

I want to come back to that in a moment, but while you were in the Comparative Biomedical Scientist Training Program, you were a molecular pathology fellow, correct?

Tiffany Lyle:

Correct, yes.

Oliver Bogler:

So what is molecular pathology? Pathology is looking at slices of tissue, right? Now molecular?

Tiffany Lyle:

Yes, yes, great question. So molecular pathology is when we are looking at specific proteins, specific molecules within a tissue to understand what changes are happening beyond just if there's inflammation, necrosis, or even proliferation in a cancer cell. So when we think about personalized medicine, which is central in some of the work done in the National Cancer Institute, getting to understand which biomarkers are specific for the patient. To understand that we have to use molecular pathology, so insights that would use immunohistochemistry, immunofluorescence microscopy, RNA scope, laser microdissection, which allow us to further understand specific changes happening in the tissue to get directed treatment to that tumor of interest.

Oliver Bogler:

Interesting stuff. Kylynda, your interest and passion for the microbiome extends beyond your research. You also have a blog, right? The Skope? Tell us about that.

Kylynda Bauer:

Yes. So I wanted to write a blog that would capture some of my experiences as a graduate student. It covers a lot of different topics. Some of them discuss how microbiome influences health. Others are maybe perhaps a guide to being an international graduate student. So I am from the US, but I was studying in Canada. And the third, just to highlight some fun experiences about research as you're being a trainee.

Oliver Bogler:

Great, we'll put a link in our show notes. Is it for the general public or is it for scientists?

Kylynda Bauer:

It is for the general public and it was, so it is an archived blog. So it covered my experiences throughout graduate school.

Oliver Bogler:

Great, but I'm sure it's an interesting view on what it's like to go down that path that you went. You mentioned you studied in Canada. You also worked for an organization whose name I dare not pronounce C -I -F -A -R, CIFAR?

Kylynda Bauer:

So CIFAR, so that's the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research. So this is a group that's set up in Toronto and it's a think tank about different policies or ideas that link with human health. So it's part of a program called Humans and the Microbiome or HMB. And this brought together medical health professionals, immunologists, microbiologists, people who were interested in studying anthropology, philosophers, and all of them gathered to ask, how do microbes influence human health?

So we had a lot of different voices discussing what had been done in the field and imagining what could be done next. So I worked as a program reporter. One of my jobs was to capture these meetings, which happened two or three times a year and present them in a way that they could be shared either with stakeholders or the general public.

Oliver Bogler:

Sounds really interesting stuff. Very cool. Tiffany, you were telling us about your current work. You described yourself as a device pathologist. Did I hear that right?

Tiffany Lyle:

Yes, yes, that's correct. So currently I'm at Cook Research Institute in Indiana. In this role, I'm a medical device pathologist for a global company. Our focus is primarily on devices for the cardiovascular system, though we work on developed devices for truly from the head to the toe. And most of our devices have a lumen, so anything that's really catheter based or or stent based is generally the platform that's used. And in this role, I'm truly using all of my training from throughout my career, which has been really phenomenal to use. Certainly my clinical training in veterinary medicine, but also I interact and communicate with so many different scientists in the course of a day, from engineers to biochemists to material scientists who have a very limited understanding on what the intricacies of the tissues that I'm evaluating are that impact how they'll improve the devices.

So it's really, really fun not only to make discoveries, certainly microscopically, but also to give these people the communication and details they need for their studies. So it has really been just a fun opportunity, a wonderful experience, addition to my career to serve as a medical device pathologist.

Oliver Bogler:

So Kylynda, you're currently an iCURE postdoc fellow at NCI. You've described your work briefly. Tell us a little bit more about that. And also, do you know what your next steps are?

Kylynda Bauer:

I'm really interested in how microbes and nerves and the immune system all shape tumor pathology. So if you think about someone who has a cold, right? You have an immune response, but it will take days to weeks before you can mount a very strong response and resolve an issue. However, there are other systems in our body, like the nervous system, where you have communication that's moving in nanosecond type of speeds.

So I'm interested in using these very dynamic systems like the microbiome or the nervous system to shape or alter the trajectory of how the immune system works. So we think about nerves as communicating to other nerves through perhaps like neurotransmitters, but actually the immune cells in our body have receptors for neurotransmitters and they're also involved in the production of peripheral neurotransmitters.

The same thing when we think about microbes interacting with other microbes. Actually, immune cells can sense different bacterial metabolites that are formed and engage with these systems. So I'm taking a look at this kind of multi-systems immunology. How are other forces in our body interacting to promote anti-tumor responses?

Oliver Bogler:

And do you know what your next step is yet?

Kylynda Bauer:

Well, my goal is to run an independent laboratory that looks at how nerves and microbes communicate and how these can shift perhaps tolerogenic or immune landscapes that are less likely to mount responses to tumors to a very strong anti-tumor response. I'd like to go beyond the liver to take a look at different colorectal as well as gastric cancers.

Oliver Bogler:

Okay, so you're plotting your way towards that. That's fantastic. Great. My last question here in this part for both of you, what advice would you give to listeners in the context of your experiences in the SRK program and also your career paths? What would you say to someone who might be in their undergraduate or early in their graduate work?

Tiffany Lyle:

I would say, mean, definitely you never know how a conversation, an email, or even a Zoom call can lead to an opportunity that really will change your trajectory. I mean, you know, there's a lot of different opportunities for engagement. Definitely take advantage of as many as you can and just keep your eyes open to those opportunities as they come.

And particularly early on, I mean, you don't have to be so sure. I mentioned that my first lab was in a yeast biochemistry laboratory. The point was that I learned science in that lab. The topic was really not that important for where I was as an undergraduate first year student. But taking advantage of those early opportunities as they come.

You just never know. And then when it comes to considering that, some opportunities that you really, really want and feel like you worked hard for may not work out, which is just a reality we all have to face, but really taking the opportunity to apply again, or even applying for different and other varied opportunities, I'd highly recommend. I didn't spend a lot of time talking about those repeat applications, but that is a part of it and it's part of what we all have to do. So I definitely encourage not being discouraged. So my advice.

Kylynda Bauer:

Well, speaking of repeat applications, I actually didn't get into the SRK program the first time I applied. I think my initial application was more focused on what I can get out of the program simply based on research. But I, you know, I took a step back. Obviously, anytime you prepare an application, whether it's, you know, a large 90 plus page, R01 type of grant, or even just an application to apply for a travel award. You do put time and energy into it. And as Tiffany mentioned, not all these opportunities pan out and it's easy to be discouraged.

But I would say one thing that helped me was just form that network of people who can support you, who can feed into your creative outlets, who you can bounce back ideas with and who will offer you an encouragement and support when things don't work out because that's science. You have to embrace the unexpected. And SRK definitely gave me a network to lean into, to support me and to celebrate my successes.

Oliver Bogler:

Thank you for that. That's great advice as well.

[music]

All right. Now it's time for a segment we call Your Turn because it's a chance for our listeners to send in a recommendation that they would like to share. If you're listening, then you're invited to take your turn. Send us a tip for a book, a video, a podcast, or a talk, anything that you found inspirational, amusing, or interesting. You can send these to us at NCIICC@nih.gov, record a voice memo, and send it along, and we may just play it in an upcoming episode.

Now I'd like to invite our guests to take their turn. Let's start with you, Tiffany.

Tiffany Lyle:

All right, have three recommendations, actually. Okay, two books. The first is The Courage to Be Disliked, which sounds actually a little bit negative, but it's actually really to really be sure and, you know, take an opportunity to put yourself out there and say, you know, what do we want for dinner? I don't know, I have whatever you want. No, how about I want pizza? You know, it's Friday. So anyway, it's a book I quite enjoy.

The other is Atomic Habits. It's just a really enjoyable book about just kind of setting the setting the standard for the day and how your day is going to go.

My last recommendation for your listeners is, know, once getting through a rigorous scientific training program and postdoc and everything else is finding, you know, trying to find hobbies and things you enjoy. And I have really found joy, I found it when I was at NCI of running random Marine Corps marathon when I was in the DC area. But I just really recommend finding a fun group that you can exercise with. I used to work out by myself, but really finding that camaraderie and community has been enjoyable for me. So if you can, running groups are back in vogue, but I've always been a part of one. So I'd highly recommend them.

Oliver Bogler:

Sounds good. Kylynda?

Kylynda Bauer:

For me, I'd like to recommend a book series that introduced me to the wonder of science. So it's a young adult book series, but if you're looking for a really great read, it's a series written by the late author, Madeleine L'Engle. The first book is the most well-known, A Wrinkle in Time.It won the Newberry Award. But this series deals with a family that's living in New England and they solve adventures that are often quite linked to science. In one novel, the children enter into a mitochondria. Another they travel across space. Another has to deal with time travel. So these are great books about family, about science and different adventures. And of course, my go-to podcasts, other than ICC, of course, Radio Labs. So I do enjoy different takes on science related questions.

Oliver Bogler:

Fantastic. Thank you for those recommendations. I'd like to also offer one. It's also for a podcast. This one is called Significant Others. And it was actually recommended to me by a postdoctoral scholar in the NCI's Intramural Program a couple of weeks ago. It focuses on the lesser-known person in a creative duo, right? So although there is this myth of the solo genius working on a problem of any kind or in the arts or whatever, often there's someone hidden in the shadows who is really critical. And the person we all know owes a great debt to this significant other, and they're required for their creative process and navigating their path. In this podcast, the host, Liza Powell O 'Brien, researches these individuals and tells their stories with the support of historical materials that are presented by a cast of actors, who really make the material come alive. And then there are also bonus episodes which feature conversations with experts on these people, the people in question that add some additional dimension. So I enjoy the podcast not only because the stories are fascinating, all too human and really well told, but also because I'm a firm believer in the notion that the myth of the solitary genius is just that, a myth and a pernicious one at that. So long live the team, even if it is a team of two. So thank you both for joining us and sharing your expertise and your pathway and your recommendations and your advice. Thank you.

Kylynda Bauer:

Absolutely, thank you.

Tiffany Lyle:

Happy to be here today.

Oliver Bogler:

That’s all we have time for on today’s episode of Inside Cancer Careers! Thank you for joining us and thank you to our guests.

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