Season 2 - Episode 16: Staff Scientists: The Swiss Army Knife of NCI

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Episode Guests

Swati S. Choksi, Ph.D.

Dr. Swati Choksi is a Staff Scientist in the Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Biology at the the National Cancer Institute, NIH. She received her Ph.D. and training in the Department of Immunology, Kimmel Cancer Center, Thomas Jefferson University. Her thesis work involved molecular modeling of peptide mimics of CD8 and develop therapeutics for graft versus host disease. These studies led to several patents. Dr. Choksi is currently interested in cell death and the fine balance of apoptosis, necrosis and autophagy that regulates the fate of a cell. Her current work is focused on connecting cell death pathways to tumorigenesis. Dr. Choksi is active in the NIH scientific community. She is a member of the CCR Staff Scientist/Staff Clinician (SSSC) Organization and has been very giving of her time by serving on many committees for the SSSC Organization since first becoming a staff scientist in 2008. She has and continues to serve on the Retreat Planning Committee, Social Networking Committee and the Professional Development Committee. Dr. Choksi is involved with the Immunology Interest Group, NIH by attending lectures and the annual retreat. Dr. Choksi  also volunteers her time and experience to judge abstracts/posters for F.A.R.E. and the SSSC.

Christophe Marchand, Ph.D.

Dr. Marchand obtained his Ph.D. in Molecular Pharmacology in 1997 from the University of Paris, Pierre & Marie Curie, in gene therapy via DNA triple helix formation. In 1998, he joined the Laboratory of Molecular Pharmacology at the NCI as a Visiting Fellow where he was appointed Staff Scientist in 2006. In 2014, he was promoted to Senior Staff Scientist (NIH Associate Scientist) in the intramural Developmental Therapeutics Branch. In 2016, Dr. Marchand became a Health Scientist Administrator at the Center for Research Strategy within the Office of the Director at the NCI, and in 2022 he joined the Developmental Therapeutics Program within the extramural Division of Cancer Treatment and Diagnosis to serve as the Deputy Associate Director. During his 25 years of bench work, Dr. Marchand has co-authored 117 peer-reviewed publications and has held 24 patents. He is a recipient of three NCI Director’s Innovation Awards, one NCI Merit Award, and 16 Federal Technology Transfer Awards for developing new classes of antiviral and anticancer drugs. He has also received a competitive NIH R03 grant for a trans-NIH high-throughput screening effort. Dr. Marchand has led the Professional Development Committee of the NCI Staff Scientists and Staff Clinicians Organization from 2011 to 2016 and has been involved in capacity building at the institute level ever since. In addition, Dr. Marchand is a volunteer officer in the Civil Air Patrol (the United States Air Force Auxiliary) where he serves as the Director for Emergency Services for the Maryland Wing involving ground/air search & rescue, disaster relief, and wilderness/disaster medical operations. Dr. Marchand is also a volunteer EMT at the Kensington Volunteer Fire Department.

Show Notes

Swati S. Choski, Ph.D.
Center for Cancer Research
Christophe Marchand, Ph.D.
Division of Cancer Treatment and Diagnosis
NCI Intramural Research Program
NIH Staff Scientists & Staff Clinicians
NCI Staff Scientists and Staff Clinicians Career Enrichment Program (SCEP)
CCR Staff Scientist & Staff Clinician Organization
NIH Assembly of Scientists

Ad: NanCI – Connecting Scientists mobile application

Scientific American
And The Band Played On
Center for Research Strategy

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Transcript

Oliver Bogler:
Hello and welcome to Inside Cancer Careers, a podcast from the National Cancer Institute where we explore all the different ways people fight cancer and hear their stories. I'm your host, Oliver Bogler from NCI's Center for Cancer Training. 
Today, we're talking with two guests about a professional science career and specifically the position we call staff scientist here at the NIH. We'll learn about the role and why it's the right choice for some investigators as well as where it could lead.
Listen through to the end of the show to hear our guests make some really interesting recommendations and where we invite you to take your turn. 
So it's a pleasure to welcome Dr. Swati Choksi, staff scientist in the Laboratory of Immune Cell Biology in the NCI Center for Cancer Research. Welcome.

Swati Choksi:
Thank you, Oliver.

Oliver Bogler:
It's also a pleasure to welcome Dr. Christophe Marchand, the Deputy Associate Director of the Developmental Therapeutics Program at the NCI. Welcome.

Christophe Marchand:
Thank you, Oliver. I'm very happy to be here. 

Oliver Bogler:
So Swati, what is a staff scientist exactly? What is your role in the research team that you are a part of?

Swati Choksi:
So I would call a staff scientist position a position that is almost like a jack of all trades and a bridge position between the goal of the principal investigator of the unit and of all the different fellows, postdocs, students that come to do their research here to learn and basically hone their craft in research. And so we sort of are the bridge between them and keep the wheels turning.

Oliver Bogler:
But you're also yourself still doing experiments, right? You're at the bench as…

Swati Choksi: 
Yes, yes, yes. We do have our own projects that sort of push the projects forward for the idea of that lab. And so we take great pride in our work, but we also want to make sure that everyone who comes to train, they also learn and the mission is moving forward at all times.

Oliver Bogler:
So you might be the most immediate mentor to someone joining the team.

Swati Choksi: 
True, true, that is true. Especially when they first start, we give them a bit of a hands-on, on how things are done in the lab, how some of our specific protocols are done, specific experiments are done for our systems that we use. And I do a lot of work with mice and vivo models of cancer. And so that requires a lot of training. Some of our trainings that come to us do not have hands-on experience with animals. They do a lot of in vitro work and so I spend a lot of time training them with in vivo work.

Oliver Bogler:
Christophe, what was your experience as a staff scientist, the position that you held at NCI between 2006 and 2016?

Christophe Marchand:
Very similar. I would like to say Swati used the term jack of all trades. I was going to use the Swiss army knife. So yes, it is exactly that. So to me, it's an incredible position, especially if you like multitasking and having your hands in many, many, many departments inside the branch where you are on the lab, where you are. So yes, similar to Swati, I had my own projects. I was mentoring many people in the lab. I was doing ordering. I was doing biosafety in the lab, both for radiation safety, but also for the biological safety level, whatever. I was doing a first line of IT support for my branch chief. I was doing, you name them, first line of fixing the equipment, you know, a lot of things. I think this is what is appealing in this position.
It's that yes, you do great research. Yes, you publish great papers, but it's more than that. There is a component where you give back a little bit. Yeah, you give back to your organization. So CCR for us, Center for Cancer Research, and the NCI as a whole. And both of us were in committees both of us were running the professional development committee for staff scientists at one point and Swati is even doing more now. So yes.

Oliver Bogler:
So I want to come back to those things in a moment. But before we leave the immediate research team role, I guess one of the things that characterizes the staff science position is one of greater duration. You might be part of a research team for longer than a graduate student or a postdoctoral scholar or even a post-bac. So in that sense, you probably have institutional knowledge, so to speak, about everything. So is that what makes you the number one resource for the team?

Swati Choksi:
I think you've really hit that nail because it's true. We are here. It is our career and we spend, most of us, I would say in the staff scientist position, spend our entire careers here at the bench, in the lab. And so we do carry that institutional memory forward. And not only is it beneficial to the PI in that research group, but it's beneficial to the post-docs and students that come and go because we can easily transfer ideas and experiences to them that makes their life and their time at the NIH very fruitful.

Christophe Marchand:
Yeah. And I would like to add the fact that also you are a keeper or you are a person who create more relationships outside the lab. So you are, you play the role of the right arm of your PI, but you're also a outward facing figure outside the lab.
One of the beauty of the Intramural Research Program at the NIH is that you have world experts in any field - worst case scenario, you have to cross the street to go to another building. I think the staff scientist is a big part of this action where relationships between labs, between teams, or even between investigators or students or postdocs are going to established and we play, I think I played a role in this when I was a staff scientist.

Swati Choksi:
I was going to add, if I may, I think what I do sometimes when a potential postdoc is interviewing, if they want to join our group or not, I always tell them the beauty of being at NIH is if you think of an experiment, I'm sure we can find someone who's doing it or has the cutting edge tools and technology to make it happen. And as staff scientists, we have an idea of where all these technologies are available to us. And so we sort of bring that to them on a platform. So I think that really helps.

Oliver Bogler:
Right, so it almost sounds as if there is a network amongst the staff scientist community across the NIH that sort of facilitates this knowledge and exploration. Is that correct?

Swati Choksi:
Very much so, very much so. In fact, I would say that we have a network for NCI staff scientists and that it grows into a bigger network NIH-wide through all the different ICs. And this is huge because if that technology is not here at NCI, we can go to NIDDK or someone else who's an expert in that field at NHLBI and connect them. And that's a big deal.

Oliver Bogler: 
So I'm sure there are also challenges about being a staff scientist. Research teams tend to be relatively complicated ecosystems, if you permit the term. And I wonder if you have some insight on the challenges that represents and maybe some of the approaches that you've learned over the years to help with that aspect of being a nexus for the research team.

Christophe Marchand:
And I wish I could go back in time because I have learned so much since. I would like to be able to go back and apply all the soft skills that I've learned or developed since. Because as the clé de voûte, which is a French word, so maybe it's not appropriate, but as a cornerstone, yeah, because there is an English term for this, of the team in the lab, you front and center to conflicts, personality conflicts. Sometimes it's conflicts about ideas and about approaches and this is all fine and we should all have our own vision or bias or whatever you call them. But when it becomes a personal conflict, this becomes toxic. And I think the staff scientist plays a big role here trying be the referee if you want or we are not always successful. 
I have to admit there were times where I was unable to make it work and this was bad, this was bad for the team. But yes, there are times where it's not easy. And there are things that maybe you want discuss that later, there are things that are directly attached to the position itself, which makes it challenging as well on the long run.

Oliver Bogler: 
Please, what are the things on your mind that you'd like to mention?

Christophe Marchand:
Swatti, do you wanna go or should I go?

Swati Choksi:
Well, I wanted to add what Christophe said. For creating a team that works well together, sometimes there's always conflict that occurs. And that conflict resolution is something that doesn't come easy to most people. It's a learned skill. so as Christophe had mentioned earlier, we started professional development for staff scientists at NCI.

And part of that is we teach them team management, leadership skills, negotiations, controversy management, all these kinds of ways to learn how to talk to people. Because not only is it just a team, but it's a diverse team. We get people from all over the world and they come in with all of their own idiosyncrasies and their way of looking at things and their approach and their training has been different. And, adding that together makes for a team for doing science, but it can lead to controversies and conflicts. And so conflict resolution is a big part of it, and we try to keep things smooth. 
That being said, the other issues that come up for a staff scientist is, as we just said, that it's a great position - we’re the bridge between the concept of the projects and the PI's vision of what we're reaching for in science and cancer research, and of all the trainees that are coming through, we sort of keep that continuum going. But where does that leave us? We don't have, we have a ceiling, we've joined the position and there is no growth in that position. 
And to alleviate that, I would say that two years ago we addressed the titling issues because at least we should be growing in our own positions and that is conferring titles as you progress in your position. And so that NIH has agreed that based on your abilities and your years of experience, you should be eligible to apply for titles and that shows career progression. And that has been really helpful and really well received by the staff scientist community. 
And after a while, we realized that there are other issues, something that comes up more and more so now. If a principal investigator hires a staff scientist, there typically is an age difference between the principal investigator and the staff scientist. That age difference in the beginning isn't that critical, but as the principal investigator approaches retirement or other family emergencies or situations, or even decides to move to a different position outside the government, where does that leave that staff scientist? If they've already invested four, eight, 10, or 12 years of their career, it's very difficult to leave, to go somewhere else because our staff scientist position is unique to the government. NIH has this fantastic position. It's great for the researchers, great for the unit, great for the lab and the institute. But when that unit breaks down, we don't have anywhere to go. It doesn't exist outside the government. And so it became difficult. I don't know Christophe can say how we've been approaching how to improve the opportunities if that should occur.

Christophe Marchand:
The main issue with this is, I'm sorry to say, but it's technical. It's because the position is directly linked to the PI. So when the PI leaves, die or retire, the staff scientist in his position becomes very unstable. And since most staff scientists are under contract, renewable every four years, when the PI retires or leaves his position or her position, the staff scientist associated or linked to the PI becomes displaced. Unless the staff scientist is very active to find a new position within the organization, there is a risk that this particular staff scientist may lose his or her job within 12 months.
This is very difficult to accept when you have 15 years of service in the organization and you have a family and you have your own family constraint. So it is unfortunate that there is such a burden on the position. And I know many people, including Swati, and Swati is currently spearheading an effort to try to make the NIH leadership recognize that we have an issue here. 
The labs clearly function with staff scientists. It's such a critical component of the Intramural Research Program. So it should be, you know, I understand that we don't have, or as a staff scientist, we may not, receive a full long -term position and we need to stay under contract, I get that. But the fact that you may lose your job in 12 months, it's a hard one.

Oliver Bogler: 
Of course. So what would be a good approach to that challenge?

Swati Choksi: 
So I want to say right off the bat that what Christoph said, it's true that it is a very unique position. And NIH leadership has been very vocal and clear that they appreciate and really understand and they really want to protect the position. The position was created as a ‘not to exceed date’ contract, which means that when we're renewed, we cannot exceed that timeline. And so when something happens and the lab closes, it's very … your position has just ended. And what we're trying to do is make a policy that you get at least a minimum of 12 years or at least what is left on ‘not to exceed contract’, whatever time is left to meet that deadline. 
Having said that, we're also preparing the staff scientist community because when we're staff scientists at the bench, our world is kind of small. We look at what we're doing on our projects, on pushing the research on cancer research forward and that's all we see. And as Christophe has, we've invited him back to talk to the community because that's not all that NIH or NCI does. We do spearhead a lot of other research that is outside of the Intramural Research Program. And so we encourage staff scientists that if they look forward into their future and say, well, there is a chance that my PI is going to retire, the lab is going to close, I better prepare myself. So again, we do offer all those leadership, conflict resolution, all these programs, classes. And we also train them in soft skills and through a SCEP program. And we also have what we call detailing, and we have programs that we can send them out to detail through in the extramural program. And so they can think about a career using their experience that they've gathered up the bench and take that out there into the extramural so that there is a way to flow.

Oliver Bogler:
Jargon alert for our listeners who may not be familiar with NIH parlance. When we say extramural, we mean within the NIH, but working on the side of the house that gives grants out into the universities. We don't actually mean people leaving the NIH proper. They're still part of our teams just facing the outside. 

Swati Choksi:
Correct.

Oliver Bogler:
OK, that's fantastic. So it sounds like the opportunity is a really good position, but there's some significant opportunity to still continue to improve it, and maybe some more formal career counseling and things like that would help smooth those things. 
I want to turn to another perhaps challenging element of this. you mentioned that staff scientists typically have their own projects, but obviously there is a PI there. So staff scientists are long-term experienced scientists. How does that feel? Are you, in your experiences, when you were working on your projects, did that give you the autonomy and independence that made your research satisfying?

Christophe Marchand: 
Yes and no. So yes, in the fact that you have some autonomy, you are always free to present a strategy or present some areas of investigation that you think that we should explore. And the PI may say yes, no, maybe, or not a priority for now. Or, yes, it's a great idea and just double check, go ahead. So this is great and I want to say as well that being a wingman to the PI, it's a great position to be also because you're basically both developing this research program and you're shaping it the way you want, both of you. 
Now where it becomes tricky is if you really want to develop a brand-new idea by yourself. And this is usually it's a no-go because for several reasons that we may not have time to explain here, but you know every lab in the intramural program has its own almost swim lane. So you don't want to go in the next swim lane because then when the lab is evaluated, reviewers may ask, why are you doing this? It doesn't fit. So this is all understandable. 
What is an issue, I think, is that you have to be creative if you want to get a little bit of money to do the stuff that costs a little bit of money and that your lab may not have the budget for. It would be much better if the position was coming with some allocation of tiny budget. doesn't need to be good to be big, but unfortunately, it doesn't come with one. So as you evolve in your position, you become creative and you apply here and there and try to get some money wherever people are giving it.

Swati Choksi:
No, Christophe is perfectly right. Our position doesn't come with independent money. And however much we have tried in the past to say, hey, we should maybe have a little, that hasn't been the case, but they have created what's called a research award. And so it's some competitive applications that you could win an award and use that money for riskier projects within your lab that you would want to take up.
And I also wanted to add that while you may not have early in your career the desire to go off on your own and do something and you're okay, you're aligned with your PI to go forward with the ideas of the lab, things change. As you grow, your ideas change, you may want to try something different, which is why that research award becomes critical in later stages of your career, that you have that opportunity should you want it, to go out there and try something new and different. So I think that's huge that our CCR leadership has put forward this research award, and that makes a big difference.

Oliver Bogler:
I think Christophe, you mentioned earlier that in addition to the work on your research teams and in your networks, you're also working on activities for the NCI. You mentioned committee roles, for example. Tell us a little bit more about that part of your job. 

Christophe Marchand:
I think it's almost a volunteer, I would say, in addition to your staff scientist position. So to, there is a term that is sometimes used, we call it CCR citizenship, right? You are free and usually your PI is gonna encourage this, to join any group, any faculty, any, what the center of for excellence in XYZ. You are really free to do this. And this is a good way to, we were discussing earlier, building relationships. It's a good way to do this. It's a good way to open your mind about fields that you may not be an expert in. I enjoyed it quite a lot. And again, you need to find the right balance between the work in the lab and your outside activities but usually I see staff scientists in general not having too many issues to do this while they serve as a staff scientist.

Swati Choksi:
Well, I have a different take on that. I will say that the CCR Staff Scientist Staff Clinician Organization was started in, oh, I think 2004, and Christophe was one of the founding members. And when that organization was started, I would say that Staff Scientist had a very low profile at NIH, at NCI, and we were not included in a lot of the different committees that are across CCR. And I think it's by the work that Christophe and I have done in the professional development that we've raised the profile of staff scientists and we are now included in a lot of different committees. 
So I am currently serving as co-chair of this organization and one of our missions is to increase our profile and be included in a lot of different committees across not just NCI, but NIH as well. So, I, for example, I serve on the Assembly of Scientists, which is an advisory committee to the NIH, and I also serve on a committee that developed the sexual harassment and bullying policies. And it was incredible to learn how these policies are developed. And so when I stepped down from that, I encouraged another staff scientist from NCI to join.
And so similarly, we've been increasing our profile. It does take away from the bench. And so some PIs may not look too kindly on it and others are very encouraging. So there's a whole range and it's just a matter of how much you want to be a CCR citizen.

Christophe Marchand: 
I want to add that Swati just took it to another level. So yes, and I want to correct you. I was not a founding member. But yes, you're right. Many people started to shape this organization. But I want to say that you took it to another level. And if I was the NIH director, I would create a job for you to do this full time.

Swati Choksi: 
Thank you.

Oliver Bogler:
Well, I hope she's listening, but that's fantastic. It's so good that you're, I mean, you've got a lot to contribute and it's so good that you're advocating for your community to be able to make those contributions.
We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna find out what got Swati and Kristof interested in science in the first place. 

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Oliver Bogler:
All right, we're back. Swati, how did you first get interested in science as a career?

Swati Choksi:
You know, I have to credit my father. When I was like 14, 15, he used to get those Scientific American issues and they had this huge spread on the chromosome and the genes and how inheritance occurs and he was like mutations and all. And he would make me read that first to last page. Like I had to read it, and explain everything and we studied it in detail and I really got totally hooked into science research and I've just not stopped since.

Oliver Bogler:
How about you, Christophe? What's your story?

Christophe Marchand:
very different story. I never had any kit, any chemistry kit. I was not interested by this when I a child. I wanted to be a policeman, firefighter, or military. 

Swati Choksi:
And you are now.

Christophe Marchand:
And yeah, but I discovered biology when I was at the university, especially molecular biology and this started to fascinate me and I never gave up. At the same time, I read a book called And The Band Played On and there was a movie that was done after the book. it basically, this book basically describes the first cases of AIDS patient coming to the NIH, being in the clinical center, being observed, and people were trying to treat them at the time. And it's an incredible story. And it describes the first drugs that are being developed by the NCI, because AZT, is the first drug against HIV infection, was developed here at NCI inside the Intramural Research Program. This book just, for me, was like a, I don't know, hitting a wall or something at full speed. And there was a lot of research being made in building 37 on the HIV virus at the time. I don't think it was discovered yet, but there was a lot of activity in building 37. And I told myself at that time, oh, you know, it would be cool to one day to be in this place and continue. So this is what what hooked me up really. And I got lucky. And again, relationships and people you meet in your life are shaping your future. And this is my story.

Oliver Bogler:
Great. So Swati, from that inspirational moment when you were reading The Scientific American, take us through the path. At what point did you decide that the staff scientist position was the right choice for you?

Swati Choksi:
So I did my undergraduate work in India and in Mumbai. And in Mumbai, in the university, it's St. Xavier's College, the University of Mumbai. You know, it's a, I hate to say it, but India is a third world country, really striving for excellence in research. And so this university had a very small lab. And Father Lancy Pereira was the head of that lab. And he said, you are very interested in this and you need to come and work in the lab. And I worked in the lab from my freshman year in college and I loved it. 
So I continued after I graduated to get my PhD at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia. And, you know, there's the story of the Philadelphia chromosome and the chief of our institute was Carlo Croce, who was involved in that research. And so, again, I was really, really, really inspired to continue. And I would say circumstance brought me to NIH. We used to collaborate with a lot of different NCI researchers here. And my husband took a job in this area. And I said, you know what? I want to work at NCI. And I want to do the work. 
I really enjoy developing mouse models and looking at different mutations that affect tumor growth. It just, was my passion. And so I've continued to do that. And I don't have to worry about grants. Big plus. So that's, that's my, think that's why I've, I really love this position. I enjoy the science. I get to do the science and I don't have to worry so much. And I think that that makes us do better science when we don't have to worry about, oh my God, I have to think about the next grant or the next thing. And we have all these different technologies and at our fingertips to move it fast and forward. So yeah.

Oliver Bogler: 
Sounds great. How about you, Christophe?

Christophe Marchand:
For me, the past was that I was doing my undergrad in Reims in France, which is the capital of Champagne. So we were drinking a lot of Champagne as students.

Oliver Bogler: 
Sounds tough.

Christophe Marchand:
But you know, didn't have a lot of connections at the time. didn't know… Okay, I had discovered that had an interest for molecular biology, but I didn't know where to go. And we were lucky. We had a bookshop where there were on display some scientific magazines and some publications from Elsevier. And I don't remember at the time which one it was, but, those were expensive. So I was not buying them, but you know, I was going there and reading them, you know, standing in the aisle of the shop and I found that at the end of one of those magazines there was an advertisement for an international meeting in Paris about DNA drug targeting. I said to myself, I have no clue what this is about but this looks cool. 
So there was a phone number and I went back home, I took note of the phone number, I called the number and directly I talked to the professor in Paris who was organizing this meeting. And I said, you know, it looks very, very interesting. This would be my first scientific meeting. But you know, what is the cost associated to that? And you know, he gave me a cost that was way above my budget. And I said, I'm sorry, but it's too much money. can't come. He says, yeah, but your lab should be able to sponsor you, blah, blah, I said, no, sir, I am undergrad, I have no one sponsoring me. I said, you are in OK, undergrad program. You know what? I appreciate your mindset. I'm going to send you an invitation. You will pay for your meals. So here I am. I go to this international meeting. First night, poster session. I had no clue what a poster session was. Said maybe we are going to take a big picture all together and make a poster. I don't know.
And I go there and I see this guy from Cambridge, UK. Hawaiian shirt, flip -flops, walking around and he says, you seem pretty young to be working in DNA drug targeting. So I explained my story and the guy was super cool. He introduced me to a lot of people, small world. And to make the story short, a couple months later, I didn't know what to do for summer. Send him a letter because at the time we didn't have emails. And within two weeks, I received a letter from him. He says, no problem. The lab is, you know, you can come. I work in a college in Cambridge. I will find you a room to stay, blah, blah, blah. So here I started. I went five times, five summer in Cambridge. Each time I got the publication. that was my, you know, I said earlier, relationships and people you meet shape your future, it's really true. And this guy put me on the saddle. 
Then one day came in Paris, gave a talk, invited me. This is where I met my PhD advisor, mean, the professor in charge of where I did my PhD. And same for finding a postdoc at NCI, a small world, send an email to the only French at the time, a person being a lab chief at the NCI. And I said, you know, I've been working with this person, this person, this person. They all knew each other. There, I was. And this is how I ended up at the NCI. So sorry for the long story, but.

Oliver Bogler: 
No, that's a great story. do have to ask which Cambridge College?

Christophe Marchand:
Jesus College. It's an old one.

Oliver Bogler: 
OK. Yeah, yeah. So Christophe, you changed a course eight years ago, right? You joined the Center for Research Strategy at the NCI. 

Christophe Marchand:
Yes.

Oliver Bogler: 
And that sounds like another really interesting team to be a part of. What prompted that move, and what did you do there?

Christophe Marchand:
Okay, so I think every staff scientist at one point is ready to move, to a career move. And it may not be right away, some of the people it comes fast, for some other people it may take longer, but for me it took what, 10 plus years? 
There was a seed that was planted in my brain probably in 2010 when I started look at all the catalogs of everything that was offered for free in terms of training at the NCI. And I said, you know, I am comfortable doing my experiments, my mentoring and stuff, but you know, I should set aside some time to do some training. And I started to do this. And this really very often say that it changed my life, but it's true, especially my first executive coaching session at the Office of Workforce and Development was like a life -changing event for me. And I realized

Swati Choksi:
I’m going to interrupt him. It was life -changing for me too because he did that and then he was coming back with all these ideas and we had to implement them for our CCR staff scientists.

Christophe Marchand:
And then, you know, you have this seed that is planted and you say, okay, I give 100 % every day for my PI and I love what I do. Okay, don't get me wrong. You don't move because you're miserable, at least for me. I moved because I was happy, but I wanted to do something else. And so you realize at one point that yes, okay, here is the new batch of summer student. Here are the new postdoc. I'm going to start again to mentor them. And so at one point it becomes some type of repetition and there is a choice you have to make. And I think it's true for all positions really, but you come to a crossroad where you say, okay, I stay here and I may stay staff scientist for the rest of my life. I may be very happy. I may have to switch to another lab at one point, but, or I try to jump into something else. 
And I think, I realized with all this training that I could, all my experience and you were mentioning institutional knowledge at the beginning, I think this is true. And to me I said, you know, my institutional knowledge maybe could be used at somewhere else inside the organization to work at maybe a different level. And this was what motivated me to switch at the time. And the fact I was looking for a stable position and not a contract position anymore.

Oliver Bogler: 
So, Swati what's your response to when Christoph says, you know, tells us how he decided to take that step?

Swati Choksi:
So, you know, I have heard similar stories from a lot of staff scientists because as I said, we were trying to encourage them to prepare if the chance happens that they have to leave. So I know he's right when he says that most staff scientists spend 10, 15 years at the bench in the lab mentoring, doing all the myriad things and come to that point where they want to leave. But some don't. Some continue. Some move, morph into a different position may not be completely tied to their PI but running a core or doing some other scientific contribution to CCR and that's just fine. 
I myself have stayed in the lab because I feel like we have our project, our goals for our research has moved along and I've continued to learn and acquire new technologies and so for me it's been very satisfying.
He's absolutely right. It varies and it changes for everybody. Some people feel the need much earlier that they've learned enough and they need to move on to add something else into their lives and others don't.

Oliver Bogler: 
So I have the opinion that scientists in general, and I'm sure this is especially true of staff scientists, tend to underestimate the transferability of the skill set. You said Swiss Army knife, Christophe, right? The multifaceted skill set and capabilities that you've developed in your position and how transferable those things are to many other roles. I mean, what's your response to my idea or thought?

Swati Choksi:
You're absolutely right. And that is one of the key things that we are trying to put out there to all the staff scientists. It's not as clear until they start applying through USA Jobs and they think well, I haven't done that but then you think about it. Yes, you have it's just a different way of stating it in the scientific format. We actually invite Christophe back a lot to talk to current junior staff scientists or that are thinking about these things and he really does convey this knowledge that everything you're agreeing like, you know, we don't think what you know, how lead a team. Yeah, we lead a team. Conflict resolution, acquiring new skill sets and training people and mentoring people. There's so many different things that I can translate to. So, yeah, Oliver, you're absolutely right. We definitely underestimate what our skills are.

Christophe Marchand: 
I could probably at this point open a shop and earn a good living by helping people to realize that, yes, they can apply to…

Swati Choksi: 
You're still coming to our meetings for free though, Christophe..

Christophe Marchand:
Yeah, I know,

Oliver Bogler:
That's the NCI spirit.

Christophe Marchand:
That's correct citizenship. Yeah, because it's very stunning. The first time you say to someone, why don't you apply to this position, scientists administrator? It's a nice stepping stone out of the lab. And they look at those questions they need to answer and basically say that they are an expert at. And they just freak out. are like deer in the headlights at night and they are totally paralyzed. And they say, no, I can't say that I am an expert at this. I said, why? Why don't you? Are you not doing this and that and other things in the lab? Oh, yes, I do. So this is exactly what they're asking in this question. The way the questions are being… it takes a certain, not mindset but certain gymnastics in your brain to be able to do some skill transfer. So there are some questions like that that people say, no, I can't apply to this position because I am not an expert, but in fact, you are.

Swati Choksi: 
Yeah, yeah. And the number one thing that Christophe and others have said to these potential staff scientists that want to do this is that, you know, you are underestimating yourself and, you know, you are the kind of person that they want to hire. So they've come to us and said, you know, staff scientists are a great resource for them and they have a lot of turnover and they really look forward to us to applying. And we're trying to fit that in. So we like changed the questionnaire.

Christophe Marchand: 
And there is something I would like to add and maybe there's something the three of us can do about it. You know, I am now on the other side of the gate, if you wish, and I am now part of, you know, part of my job is to look at resumes and try to hire people for positions. And what I noticed over the years is that there is a disconnect between the extramural world, as you described earlier, and the intramural research community. 
I think in order to, someone tried to facilitate the transfer of knowledge and expertise from one to the other because you have great potential candidates. It's not an encouragement for the staff scientists to leave their position. It's not that, but for the one who are ready, it should be easier to transfer. And I think many people in the extramural divisions at the NCI would love to hire people with institutional knowledge and with many years of experience at the NCI. And it's not always easy or there's no pre-established mechanism, if you wish. Yes.

Oliver Bogler:
Yeah, it's like any big organization, you barely know the people one floor up from you. So to finish out this part, I'd like to ask you both to give some advice to our listeners, maybe people who are thinking about their own future path in cancer research. How can they explore more the paths that you took and learn about them? And what would you say to them as they think about their own future?

Swati Choksi:
You don't ask easy questions, do you? I think I would say that typically a PI hires a staff scientist out of the existing lab pool that he has. It's usually a postdoc that's spent time with him and they've worked well together and have had success together and they continue to work. 
Before you sign on to becoming a staff scientist, truly understand what that role is, because you will never be the PI. You will always be second in command. You will always have a lot of different things that you have to do, including budgeting, mentoring, all this other stuff. And so it would behoove you to talk to other staff scientists before you sign on so that you understand. I have talked to a few second-year into the staff scientist career and they're like, I didn't know this is what I was signing up for. I thought there would be something else. And if you don't know, then you're going to have that regret. And so that would be my suggestion. 
And also, if you do take it on, we have a page on the CCR website for staff scientists that has volunteers that have listed there to offer their mentoring. And before you can, or even as soon as you have, we're there to help you. So come talk to us.

Oliver Bogler:
We'll put a link in the show notes. Christophe, what's your advice to our listeners?

Christophe Marchand:
Yeah, I would like just to add something to what Swati said. I think it's more than a few. How many people have we seen, have we met, not knowing what their contract was about? And I mean, it's plenty. So my advice, and I think it was said very openly by both of us, the fact that taking any type of professional development training change our lives. I think it's true to retake the analogy of the Swiss Army knife. You are a Swiss Army knife, but now it's time to sharpen your blades. You're already a well-rounded scientist when you are a staff scientist. But I think you're missing - and I think it's true for many positions - you're missing the aspect of developing your soft skills because at the end of the day, you spend your day working with people. 
You have to get trained on how to work successfully with people. And it starts by discovering who you are. It's called the self-awareness development. And usually it's basically professional development 101. And I usually say that it's like it's in the middle of your face, but you don't see it. And this is a nose, but you need to discover why it matters. Why did you do what you do? Why are you waking up every morning to go in the lab and work on cancer research? And I think each of us have different why it matters, but you need to discover your own. And when you have discovered that, it's like your super superpower. If I want to use the analogy of a superhero, and they all have their kryptonite. So if you use your superpower in a wrong way, it can be difficult to live every day. But if you discover what is your special power and you know when to use it and when to tune it down, I think you have progressed tremendously. And now all the doors are open and you can do basically whatever you want.
[music]

Oliver Bogler:
Okay, I think it's time for our segment, our Your Turn segment. So we call this Your Turn because it's a chance for our listeners to send in a recommendation that they would like to share. And if you're listening, then you're invited to take your turn. Send us a tip for a book, a video, a podcast, or a talk that you found inspirational or amusing or interesting. You can send those to us at NCIICC@nih.gov. And if you record a voice memo and send it along, we may just play in an upcoming episode. But now I'd like to invite our guests to take their turn. Let's start with you, Swati.

Swati Choksi:
Okay, as I said before, Oliver really knows how to ask really good questions. So I think my favorite favorite movie of all time is Life is Beautiful. And I know some people think of it as a very sad war movie, but I see it as even in the dire times, there's so much joy. The human spirit is always there, always fighting and coming out blooming. So that movie makes me cry, laugh, smile, and I just love it. So that's my favorite movie. And one of my favorite books is God of Small Things, The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy. It's an Indian novelist. And the reason I love that book is it's about two children, they're twins, and they're lost to the world. They don't have parents, they don't have anything, and yet they, how they navigate life and always look for fun and joy in their lives. So you see there's a theme. I think that we have to, no matter what struggles we have in life, I always think that there's always joy to be had, and that's how I see it. 

Oliver Bogler: 
Thank you. Those are great. Christophe?

Christophe Marchand:
I'm not gonna recommend a book or a movie. I'm gonna recommend something that gives me a ton of energy in the morning. It's a free email that I receive every morning at, I think it arrives at 6 a.m. It's called Leadership Freak. And Leadership Freak, I don't even know the name of the guy, maybe I should, but it's very nice because it sends you in your inbox in the morning something about leadership. And if you want to dive a little bit more, you click on the link and you can read a blog. It's a very short blog with associated links. So there are days where I say, yeah, I know that, so I'm not going to click. But there are days where it really spikes my curiosity and I just go there and I say, yeah, this is smart and I'm going to try to use this. this is one thing. 
I think to me, it is also important to have the right work and life balance. And for me, my why it matters is to help others. So for me, the volunteering in volunteer organizations is what helps me a lot to balance, I would say or to get the equilibrium in my professional life. So this is very important to me.

Oliver Bogler:
Thank you for that. I'd like to make a recommendation as well. Listeners will know about my obsession with AI and it continues. So I'd like to recommend a book, Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI by Ethan Mollick. So Dr. Mollick is a professor of management at Wharton specializing in entrepreneurship and innovation. And in this book, he provides some very useful advice on how to use current AI tools and the best strategies for gaining their benefit and avoiding some of the pitfalls. If you've been following AI developments closely and are already engaged with some of the tools like Gemini or ChatGPT, then some of the material in the book will be familiar. If not, this book will get you launched quickly and with confidence. So the reality is that AI is here to stay, and getting comfortable with it, or at least as comfortable as you're willing to get, is, in my opinion, advisable. It's a quick read and very accessible with lots of examples of Dr. Mollick’s own experimentation.
Well, I want to thank you both, Swati and Christophe. Thank you so much for spending time with us, sharing all your insights and your careers and all the good stuff you do. Thank

Swati Choksi: 
Thank you, Oliver. Always a joy to be with Christophe. So thank you.

Christophe Marchand:
Yeah, same here. And thank you very much, Oliver, for inviting us. 

Oliver Bogler:
That’s all we have time for on today’s episode of Inside Cancer Careers! Thank you for joining us and thank you to our guests. We want to hear from you – your stories, your ideas and your feedback are welcome. And you are invited to take your turn and make a recommendation to share with our listeners. You can reach us at NCIICC@nih.gov. Inside Cancer Careers is a collaboration between NCI’s Office of Communications and Public Liaison and the Center for Cancer Training. It is produced by Angela Jones and Astrid Masfar. Join us every first and third Thursday of the month wherever you listen – subscribe so you won’t miss an episode. If you have questions about cancer or comments about this podcast, you can email us at NCIinfo@nih.gov or call us at 800-422-6237. And please be sure to mention Inside Cancer Careers in your query. We are a production of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Institutes of Health, National Cancer Institute. Thanks for listening.